I am Jeff Martin of WWW.DGJC.ORG

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Hello.

I have written at length at http://www.dgjc.org to share my Christian faith and develop my thoughts about the extent of God's love for humanity. I had not read any universalist books on the subject before completing my work. Though I may have read John Hanson's work and been introduced to universalist ideas in college. However, I hypocritically forgot about this hope and adopted straight Calvinism for years. The point is I do not want to be accused of simply copying the ideas of others, but to take responsibility for my own Biblical studies. Now, it has been an encouragement to me that over the last fifteen years I have come or re-come to similar conclusions explained in Robin Parry's book and also Gerry Beauchemin's book. I share a similar view that there is punishment after death for the unbeliever, but that it is temporary.

One noted difference in our understanding is that I think that Great White Throne judgment (Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15) is better understood as a judgment of both humans and fallen angels, extracted from Hades. Humans are saved on the right, while the fallen angels from 2 Peter 2:4 are also extracted and damned on the left. I have concluded from Hebrews 2:14-16 that the sins of mankind are atoned, while the sins of Satan and the fallen angels are not. Thus Revelation 21-22 goes on to encourage the believing of the destiny for the elect, that is all mankind has been redeemed at the cross for Heaven, while the destiny of the non-elect, that is fallen angels is determined to be the Lake of Fire for all eternity since there is no vicarious atonement for their sin. Of course unbelieving mankind cannot read Revelation 21-22 without fear because they do not have confidence that their names are written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world through the grace of Christ. Unbelievers are unbelieving and so do not yet rest in God's electing grace. I think this understanding is a better synthesis of all the Scriptures and addresses important concerns of universalist objectors.

I would appreciate if anyone had the time to critically review my book at http://www.dgjc.org/optimism. The complete details of my thought are found there. I would also appreciate any suggestions for fellowship in Pennsylvania. My agreement and disagreement with the Calvinist and Arminian has made finding fellowship and ministry partnership difficult. Message me privately.

I am married with four young adult children and just turned 48. My day job is working behind a computer providing IT, back office, and accounting support for a small business. By night I am a family man and laboring to disciple college students. My hobby is playing the guitar.

In Christ,

Jeff Martin

[alecforbes]

Hi Jeff,

Welcome and I look forward to hearing more from you. I have to tell you up front, my mother's maiden name was Martin (from Hyannis , Nebraska) and I have a cousin named Jeff Martin so…well, you've got that going for you! I think I've seen your name in the combox on Peter Enn's site (maybe Randal Rauser's?)

You said:

I share a similar view that there is punishment after death for the unbeliever, but that it is temporary.

There are a couple threads going currently mentioning "purgatorial punishment" or (as I prefer) "post-mortem spiritual education" and you might want to weigh in with your views more specifically on one of those. This thread is probably the most appropriate: http://jeff-martin-reposted.signedon.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5673

Anyway, welcome to the forum!

Steve

[SLJ]

Welcome, Jeff

I didn't read the whole post on your site, but I liked the quote from your friend at the beginning, that perhaps your 'optimism had just gotten out of control'. I think many of us have encountered that kind of response to our hope.

There's a scene like this in one of George MacDonald's books:

Faber was silent a moment, then answered, "Your theory has but one fault: it is too good to be true."

from http://www.online-literature.com/george ... ngfold/73/




If God is good, can anything be too good to be true? Can any hope be too great?

"Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us,
to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen."

Sonia

[[email protected]]

Thanks Steve and Sonia. Also I see that the introduction forum does not allow challenge or rebuke. So I have created a post in the 'Discussion Affirmative' forum to invite critical reviews of my ebook. If you are interested and have time I would be grateful for any constructive criticism, positive or negative, over here...

http://jeff-martin-reposted.signedon.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5695&e=0

Thanks!

[NightRevan]

HI Jeff, welcome to the forums and I hope you find these forums a rich place to be, and I look forward to your contributions here,

Grant

[Gabe Grinstead]

Question. Why not salvation for fallen angels? Why would we want them the suffer ECT? In fact, I find that a difficult leg to stand on while desiring the salvation of all. God must love all things, not just insignificant humans. Besides they are in tartarus, isn't that punishment? What does that serve if there is no end to it? How can God be all-in-all if there is a body of beings being tortured? Just some thoughts.

I hope this is not viewed as a challenge. If it is, the mods can delete it. I don't want to break the rules or harmony of the forum.

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the question and it is a good point to clarify.

I was hoping to get feedback on my understanding of this because it is a small point of difference with the model outlined by Robin Parry in The Evangelical Universalist. You say,

Why would we want them the suffer ECT?

. Well it is not that I or we want fallen angels to suffer damnation, but instead what do the Scriptures say will happen. God is their judge, not our wishful thinking. Of course our first challenge is working with our imperfect ability to understand, do the Scriptures provide enough data to come to a conclusion, and finding a consistent model of understanding. Any model of understanding that suggests that all mankind, even all fallen angels, are finally saved either has to interpret Scripture to mean that either 1) people do not suffer after death in Hades or the Lake of Fire, or 2) if they do suffer in these places they are eventually released. To me it seems clear in Luke 16:19-31 that #1 is ruled out because the Rich man suffered after he 'died and was buried'. So then do the Scriptures support #2? I think they clearly do because Revelation 20:11-15 explains that all the people are in fact extracted out of Hades. My small point of difference with Parry and Beauchemin is that I see Revelation 21:1 as the beginning of blessed eternity for everyone whose name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that is all mankind, and the beginning of damnation for the unredeemed, that is fallen angels. However, Parry and Beauchemin suggest that there is still further sin and salvation to be experienced for the redeemed in Revelation 21, 22, and beyond. My two main concerns with their understanding is 1) Hebrews 2:16 could be understood to mean that the atonement does not apply to angels (Jesus became a man to atonement for mankind, not angel-kind), and 2) a more natural way to understand Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15 is as the final judgment, but with only fallen angels are on the left. After all, Revelation 21:1 is the beginning of the New Heavens and Earth and the new order of things. Yet I have even suggested in my own ebook that Colossians 1:20 could be understood to include the salvation of fallen angels. But on the other hand even though Scriptures explicitly speak about the emptying of Hades, there is no mention of escaping the Lake of Fire. Seems to me that the 'aion' of the Lake of Fire is eternal. I have written briefly about the destiny of fallen angels here http://www.dgjc.org/content/optimism/revelation-20-10. What purpose could Satan and his damnation serve? Satan has already served the purpose of leading the charge with sin in this world so that God could have opportunity to demonstrate his grace. Perhaps Satan's eternal damnation serves as a reminder to the redeemed that we also deserve damnation, but are saved only by grace through the atonement of Christ.

I think we have satisfied the moderators without debating in this forum. I will be glad to offer more points of clarification here as requested. What I am really hoping is to attract constructive criticism from people who have read my whole argument here http://www.dgjc.org/content/optimism. If you have time to do that then please visit this post http://jeff-martin-reposted.signedon.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5695&e=0.

Thanks Gabe

[[email protected]]

Though more food for thought 1 Corinthians 6:3 says that we will judge angels. Has Jesus has put the destiny of fallen angels in our hands?