There is No Punishment After Death for the Redeemed!

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I have written a defense of the victorious gospel at http://www.dgjc.org/optimism.
I have answered objections here http://www.dgjc.org/optimism/appendix.
Here is a reprint of one of my answers for further feedback.

After sharing the good news with a Calvinist they complained..."There is No Punishment After Death for the Redeemed!"

I wish that were true.

I understand that the Calvinist way of thinking insists that there is no punishment after death for anyone whose sins have been paid for at the cross. This way of thinking is why Calvinists come to the conclusion that Jesus did not die for all mankind, because you know that people are punished after death. Yet, you too quickly conclude that the answer is that Jesus did not die for all mankind. Furthermore, to hold to your understanding you offend tons of Scriptures.

Consider these four plain Scriptures.

1 John 2:1-2 (NIV) says, "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

Jesus did pay for all mankind's sin, the believing and the unbelieving. He paid for our sin whether we believe it or not! How could this verse be more plain?

2 Peter 2:1-10 (NIV) says, "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority."

Yet false teachers, even though they are bought, redeemed, and their sins fully paid, will be held for punishment on the day of judgment. How could this verse be more plain? How could this truth be worded more clearly than it already is? The answer is that it could not be worded more clearly, but instead Calvinist theology is at odds with the Scripture itself.

Jesus also said in Luke 12:47 (NIV), "The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

The pie in the sky thinking about God's forgiveness does not square with the Biblical picture of Jesus' wrath against sin and the punishments he has planned... even for believers. Yes, God does forgive and has forgiven all, but he also punishes those He loves, Psalm 130:4, Hebrews 12:10! The proper posture for God's people is to brace ourselves for our interview with the Holy Righteous Creator Redeemer Judge of the entire Universe confessing that we have sinned greatly and trusting that our sin is fully paid at the cross.

Instead of offending these Scriptures above why not simply change your mind, and agree that the unbelieving will be punished in Hades even though their sins are paid? Why not also change your mind and agree with me that the atonement of Christ will finally be effective in their salvation after they have served the duration in Hell?

Jesus promised in Matthew 16:17-20 (NIV), "Jesus replied, 'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.' Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah."

Why not believe?

Jeff

[Paidion]

I have a bit of difficulty with two words which you employ:

1. Punishment. I think you are using it in the sense of administering a penalty for wrongdoing. I believe that God does not administer penalties. Rather He administers correction (See my signature statement).

2. "Jesus did pay for all mankind's sin". What does this mean? How can anyone PAY for sin? Where do you find this in scripture? I find that Jesus died in order to DELIVER us from sin. God is not interested in letting us off the hook because our sins were paid for. He is interested in seeing our characters change for the better through his enabling grace (Titus 2) which is made available through Christ's sacrifice.

I have discovererd in scripture the following reasons for Christ's death:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.

[Eaglesway]

I agree that there is no punishment/correction/kolassis after death for the redeemed, defining the redeemed as all those who are are His when He appears, and all those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[lancia]

I have a bit of difficulty with two words which you employ:

1. Punishment. I think you are using it in the sense of administering a penalty for wrongdoing. I believe that God does not administer penalties. Rather He administers correction (See my signature statement).

2. "Jesus did pay for all mankind's sin". What does this mean? How can anyone PAY for sin? Where do you find this in scripture? I find that Jesus died in order to DELIVER us from sin. God is not interested in letting us off the hook because our sins were paid for. He is interested in seeing our characters change for the better through his enabling grace (Titus 2) which is made available through Christ's sacrifice.

I have discovererd in scripture the following reasons for Christ's death:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Very interesting and informative.

But, I have a question about Titus 2:14. Do you interpret "to redeem us from all iniquity," from that verse, to mean "to deliver us from sin," from your words above? If so, how exactly does Jesus deliver us from sin? Is it by purifying us, as is also said in that verse, and in so doing, he accomplishes what you assert God wants: our character to change for the better? Can you explain, please, because the word redeem, as used in this verse, can mean "to free from the consequences of sin," which can be interpreted to mean "to pay for our sins," which you seem to say you disagree with.

[[email protected]]

Good discussion, thanks everyone. Hopefully the main point of my post wasn't missed in any argument over the meaning of words.

My main point is that traditional theology, whether Calvinistic or Arminian suggests that there is no pain, but only bliss after death for those that are eternally saved. However, I think most in this forum would agree that unbelieving wicked human beings will suffer pain in the afterlife (call it what you will) but that they too will finally enter a blissful eternity after the pain.

Regarding use of the word punishment I certainly agree that everything God does is loving toward all creatures and creation. However, I can hardly agree that God doesn't exact punishment or penalty for wrong doing. He does this all the time... with loving purpose. Romans 11:9 even uses the word 'retribution' which means to pay back for wrong doing.

Also it seems unnecessarily argumentative to say that Christ's death did not pay for sin. Why the very word 'redeem' means to buy back. The giant metaphor of Scripture is that Israel was sold into slavery just as all mankind was sold into sin, and God bought back Israel, just as Christ redeemed all mankind at the cross. Now I certainly agree that the cross of Christ bought the power to transform us from away from sin as well. One pastor summarized that the cross of Christ freed us from the Penalty and Power of sin, and eventually the Presence of sin. So don't be upset if I happened to be speaking about freedom from the Penalty of sin one moment, for I also believe the cross frees us from the Power of sin and one day the Presence of sin. 1 Peter 1:18 says Jesus redeemed, paid for the consequences of our empty way of life. He delivered us from the Penalty so that he could deliver us to freedom from the Power of sin. Both are true. All mankind has already been freed from any eternal Penalty or consequence for sin at the cross (though temporary consequences remain), but only Christians through the indwelling Spirit have been freed from the Power of Sin. One glorious day however we will all be freed from the Presence of sin.

I also try to be fairly precise in my use of the word 'redeem'. Many Christians use the word redeemed to mean when they became a Christian. However, since redeem means 'buy back' I understand the act of redemption to have taken place one time for all at the cross of Christ, independently of our faith or lack of faith. All mankind is redeemed by God's choice, not our choice. All mankind's sins are atoned by Christ's willing sacrifice. However, not all mankind has had their heart changed to receive this good news. And those who remain unregenerate and resist the good news will suffer pain, punishment, call it what you will, in the afterlife even though their sins are already paid, redeemed. This seems to be a critical point to make with those who are convinced that most of mankind is eternally damned. 2 Peter 2:1-2 says explicitly that the false teachers who will be punished are still none-the-less bought, that is redeemed by Christ. This verse makes the important point that the unrepentant will suffer pain in the afterlife even though their sins are paid.

One last thought is that we ought also to recognize that the love of God deals differently with the regenerate, that is the believing, in contrast to the unregenerate, the unbelieving. Of course he loves all. However, Christians know God as their Heavenly Father and so he disciplines them as sons. Non-Christians, however, reject God as their father and so his dealings with them, though loving, are of a different quality. For example Moses was disciplined as a son by not being allowed to enter the promised land and lovingly buried personally by the Lord, but rebel Korah and his family were swallowed alive into the grave.