Fallen Angels are the Goats on Jesus' Left

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I have written an ebook defense of Christ as Savior of all mankind here - http://www.dgjc.org/optimism. Many have objected and I have answered each objection here - http://www.dgjc.org/optimism/appendix. My most recent objector says....

OBJECTOR>> Fallen angels will not be judged at The Great White Throne Judgment or The Sheep and Goat Judgment. You are wrong about that! The Goats on Jesus' left are unbelieving mankind that will be damned to the Lake of Fire!

ME>> I certainly respect that we have a different view of these things. However, please consider one more amazing observation from the Scripture. Traditional and popular understanding has maintained for most of the church age that The Great White Throne Judgment and The Sheep and Goat Judgment are the final judgments of human beings. Tradition maintains that believers, those who accepted Jesus are the Sheep on the right, while unbelievers, those who died without faith, are the Goats on Jesus left. Even many universalists think that unbelieving mankind is sent to the Lake of Fire, but they are finally released sometime beyond the last page of the Bible. However, I and others in church history differ from this traditional understanding for a number of reasons and now want to bring one more TOTALLY amazing reason to the table. Again I am convinced that the Lake of Fire is ONLY PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS and that no human being will EVER enter these fires. I am convinced that the final judgment of Jesus also includes the judgment of fallen angels and THEY ALONE are the Goats on Jesus' left sent to the Lake of Fire.

First consider a quick review of my reasons already given. If you have not already read my proof that Jesus is the Savior of all mankind, please start here - http://www.dgjc.org/optimism.

1) Jesus paid for the sins of all mankind, therefore human beings cannot be condemned to the Lake of Fire, not even unbelieving mankind, 1 John 2:1-2. If God himself has paid for our sin, who remains to condemn us? Furthermore, faith does not cause our election to forgiveness, but instead faith trusts that we are already chosen for forgiveness from before the creation of the world, Ephesians 1:4! But are not unbelievers punished after death?

2) Jesus does punish unbelieving mankind in Hades after death, however, even in Hades his love for all mankind continues, Psalm 139:8. Contrary to tradition even unbelievers will be finally released from their punishments to receive salvation, Matthew 16:18, and Revelation 20:13. Jesus deeply loves all mankind, yet there still is punishment in Hades for those who reject the grace of God even though they are already forgiven. Punishment for the unbelieving is promised in 2 Thessalonians 2:9. However, read the YLT Bible to see that the word 'eternal' is mistranslated from the Greek word 'aion' and should instead read 'eon' or 'age'. Unbelievers are punished for the 'age' of Hades. Love does not remove punishment, but instead God punishes us because he loves us! But does Jesus love the fallen angels also?

3) Jesus did not atone for the sins of fallen angels, therefore their sins are not forgiven, Hebrews 2:14-16. Jesus' plan from the beginning has been to crush the head of Satan, Genesis 3:15. During the course of history some demons have already been imprisoned in Tartarus for future judgment, 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6. Scripture then ends with the damnation of the Devil and his Angels to the Lake of Fire, Revelation 20:10. So when will these fallen angels be judged?

4) Jesus' Sheep and Goat Judgment is synonymous with The Great White Throne Judgment. Since Scripture says that fallen angels are being 'held for judgment' on 'The Great Day' the most obvious timing for this judgment is the Sheep and Goat Judgment and The Great White Throne Judgment when Jesus stands all his subjects before him for final judgment, Daniel 12:1-4, Matthew 25:31-46, and Revelation 20:11-15. So the subjects that stand before Jesus at the final judgment will include unbelieving mankind just released from Hades and the demons just extracted from Tartarus. But how can you be certain?

5) Jesus says explicitly that the Lake of Fire is... PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS, Matthew 25:41. The Lake of Fire is NOT prepared for humans. Though we deserve the same fate as the Devil and his Angels, yet because of the grace of Jesus mankind is spared eternal damnation. The Devil and his Angels, however, are damned to the Lake of Fire. But is there more proof?

Some have objected to my understanding saying that fallen angels will not be present at The Sheep and Goat Judgment or at The Great White Throne Judgment. However, the Scripture is clear that these fallen angels are presently being held for future judgment. Consider...

2 Peter 2:4 (NIV), "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell [Tartaroo], putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment."

Jude 6 (NIV), "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the Great Day."

The Scripture is clear that these imprisoned fallen angels are being held for judgment at some point in the future. Jude 6 is very clear that the timing of this judgment will be on 'The Great Day'. I have suggested that this Great Day is the same day as The Sheep and Goat Judgment and The Great White Throne Judgment. What other day would you propose?

However, consider one last proof directly from Revelation 20:13 (NIV), "The sea [Thalaasa] gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done."

Have you ever thought it curious that both the sea [Thalassa] and Hades gave up the dead that are in them? Why the distinction? Why both Thalaasa and Hades? Perhaps the reference to the sea and Hades is doubly expansive in order to communicate the certainty that all the dead will be raised. Perhaps the language is slightly poetical or apocalyptic and so should not be pressed too hard for meaning.

I have noted elsewhere that the Holy Spirit borrows the term 'Tartaroo' from Greek mythology in order to help the first century reader understand that the fallen angels are held in a separate harsher prison than unbelieving mankind. Unbelieving mankind is punished in Hades. However, in Greek mythology Tartarus is a deeper more serious punishment and that is where some fallen angels are being held now, 2 Peter 2:4. So again is the Holy Spirit into Greek mythology? Certainly not. However, he borrows these terms to communicate the truth to his first century audience. So how do these observations help answer any question about the certainty of fallen angels being present at The Great White Throne Judgment?

As said above we already have two clear Scriptures that prove it. FIRST, these fallen angels are being held for punishment on 'THE GREAT DAY.' SECOND the Lake of Fire is 'PREPARED FOR... THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.' THIRD, we turn to Greek mythology to learn if there is any connection between 'Thalaasa' and 'Tartarus.' Revelation 20:13 oddly says that "The sea [Thalaasa] gave up the dead that were in it." Why?

A little study of Greek mythology is needed to help us get into the mind and understanding of the first century reader. Why did the Holy Spirit distinguish between 'Thalaasa' and 'Hades'? Why are dead in these two separate places? Surely there are not deceased human souls literally at the bottom of the sea!

Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalassa_%28mythology%29 and you will see that Thalaasa was the Greek godess of the sea. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethys_%28mythology%29 and you will see that Thalaasa's counter part was a Titan named Tethys. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_%28mythology%29 to learn even more about Titan mythology. However, read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus to learn that Tartarus was the tortuous prison for the... Titans.

Simply stated the Greek godess Thalaasa's counterpart was the Titan, Tethys, who was imprisoned in Tartarus. Now again I am NOT saying that the Holy Spirit believed in Greek mythology in any sense. However, the Holy Spirit does borrow some terms from Greek mythology in order to communicate truth to the first century reader. So what truth is communicated?

My THIRD proof is that when the Holy Spirit says that Thalaasa gave up the dead that were in it, he is speaking about the fallen angels imprisoned in Tartarus. There is a definite connection between Tartarus and Thalaasa to the first century reader.

So again it is further proved that the Goats on Jesus left at The Sheep and Goat Judgment, that is The Great White Throne Judgement, ARE IN FACT the fallen angels to be summoned from Tartarus to stand before Christ. They are the Goats on Jesus left damned to the Lake of Fire 'PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.' So again no humans being will EVER enter The Lake of Fire! Instead the Sheep on Jesus right are unbelieving mankind to be released from Hades and finally graced with understanding and joy over their Savior and ours, the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, be warned by the gospel. Humans who reject grace will be punished in Hades even though their sins are forgiven, BECAUSE God loves them! Why test the Lord? Repent and receive the good news that YOUR sins are forgiven BECAUSE the sins of ALL mankind are forgiven!

Sincerely,

Jeff

[JasonPratt]

So... the sea goddess or rather the Titan corresponding to the sea goddess gives up his dead? Wouldn't it have made more sense to say that Tartarus gives up its dead (including the Titans == rebel angels), if the reference was meant to borrow from Greek mythology in order to explain what was happening?

There actually isn't any reason to appeal to a Greek myth parallel here: in Jewish typology, any dangerously large body of water (especially one that couldn't be drunk, like the Mediterranean or the Persian Gulf or most especially the super-salty Dead Sea) could stand for the prison of rebel angels. There are numerous scriptural precedents along this line, including in RevJohn itself. (To pull another semi-random example off the top of my head, there's an ironic visual pun in what happens to the Legion or Mob of demons which went into the pigs rather than being sent back into the "swirling depths" aka the abyss: the pigs promptly hurl themselves off a cliff or embankment into the swirling depths of Lake Galilee! Literally, spiritually, and typologically the demons are back in the swirling depths after all.)

So I'm not necessarily disagreeing with this part of your interpretation; I'm just saying you can ground it better without such a reach.


I do have some actual problems with the interpretation, though.

1.) "Jesus paid for the sins of all mankind, therefore human beings cannot be condemned to the Lake of Fire, not even unbelieving mankind, 1 John 2:1-2. If God himself has paid for our sin, who remains to condemn us? [...] But are not unbelievers punished after death?" Well, yes, as you yourself immediately go on to agree; but then your rationale for why they aren't punished in the Lake of Fire breaks down: Jesus paid for the sins of all mankind, so who remains to condemn us? Obviously paying for the sins of mankind doesn't prevent God from punishing sinners; consequently that wouldn't prevent God from punishing sinners in the LoF either. This part of the argument needs more specific details why the LoF wouldn't be a punishment subsequent to hades for humans who continue impenitent after hades.


2.) Rev 20:13 in itself isn't evidence that unbelievers will be finally released from their punishments to receive salvation. It says the dead shall be raised from the sea and from hades and from death to be judged according to their deeds. Whether they go into the LoF or not depends (per the poetic imagery of the scene) on whether they're in the book of life or not; and the scene (from 20:11-15) makes no special distinction between whether the dead in the sea or the dead in hades are written in the BoL.


3.) Earlier in RevJohn 3:5, Jesus warns the congregation at Sardis that if they don't repent of their evil deeds He's going to blot their names out of the BoL. There are people who have not been written in the BoL of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8, and per 17:8 were not written in from the foundation of the world) who will worship the beast from the sea (and there's one of the sea == rebel angel prison images by the way ). Someone's name can be added to the BoL once they repent, so that isn't a hopeless state (Mal 3:16, there called the Book of Remembrance -- plus some other statements elsewhere involving imagery parallel to the concept of the Book of Life, like being grafted out of the Vine in Rom 11); but the point is that humans are occasionally warned that they may not be found in the BoL when the day of judgment comes -- and Rev 20 says whoever isn't found in the BoL at that point will go into the Lake of Fire. That isn't only rebel angels, it includes impenitent humans.


4.) So far as Gehenna stands for the punitive form of being salted with the unquenchable fire (as in Mark 9:49-50, with preceding context), Jesus seriously warns people they could go into Gehenna. Mark and Matthew both report qualifications in that scene indicating this is far from hopeless, one of which is Matt 18:34 (where going to the tormentors == going into unquenchable fire of Gehenna, and that which is to be paid being mercy and forgiveness toward other people), but it's still a serious warning of a real possibility, not something Christ will make impossible.


5.) Rev 21:8, the typical list of human sin -- not exclusive of the sin of rebel angels of course -- indicates those whose part shall be in the lake of fire. The same list is mentioned in regard to those still outside the New Jerusalem at Rev 22:15. They're being evangelized by the Spirit and the Bride to slake their thirst and wash themselves clean in the river of life flowing out of the never-closed gates, and to eat of the log of life whose leaves are for the healing of the nations, so their situation certainly isn't hopeless; but either these sinners include humans (as typical of such lists for warning the readers of scripture), or rebel angels are being evangelized. (Or both!)


6.) The consuming fire warning of Heb 12:29 overtly applies to human readers of the epistle, and the context overtly includes human examples. Of course the context also overtly explains that the punishment isn't meant to be hopeless, but to be instructive, but still rebel angels are certainly not the only species in view here. (Ditto some other warnings about spiritual fire punishment, from Jesus, John the Baptist referencing Malachi, and St. Paul.)


7.) Whatever "into the eons of the eons" means or doesn't mean at Rev 14:9-13, and whatever "torment" does or doesn't mean, the punishment is some kind of spiritual event involving something imaged with fire and brimstone, and the targets are humans who agreed to receive the mark of the beast. Several verses later, at the start of chapter 15, John flashforwards to see the end result, which is that once the wrath of God is fulfilled or completed or finished, those who come out from the beast and out from his image and out from the number of his name are found standing on the sea of glass mixed with fire praising God in fulfillment of the prophecy that all the nations will come and worship before Him. The description of them having come out from the mark of the beast means they include the humans being previously punished for taking the mark of the beast and worshiping his image; but it also means they went into the LoF.


8.) Heb 2:16 doesn't say Jesus doesn't atone for the sins of fallen angels; but rather the Hebraist is saying that God raises up the descendent/seed (singular) of Abraham rather than raising up angels: this is part of his ongoing comparison of the superiority of Christ to angels, focusing recently on the incarnation. In other words, an angel wasn't who God raised to save us but the seed of Abraham. Similarly, back in chapter 1, the Son isn't a mere angel. Colossians 1:20, among some other statements by St. Paul, says that God does reconcile (atone), through the blood of the cross, all things which need reconciliation (all things which are alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds), whether in the heavens or on the earth; which are included in the absolutely all things created by the Son (whether visible or invisible, whether thrones, dominions, rulers or powers) and held together by Him.


9.) Jesus' plan from the beginning was not only to crush the head of Satan but to bring him (as the "bronze serpent) to eat of the dust of the Earth; and Isaiah says that's going to happen eventually on God's holy mountain of peace (66:25, using the same term for the serpent as in Gen 3, and echoing Is 11:6-10). There are several other scriptural passages indicating God will bring even the ultra-rebel dragon back into loyalty, too.


10.) Jude v.13 says the false teachers will be condemned to the same zophos as the angels which did not keep their own domain but abandoned their proper abode in verse 6 (and indeed Jude compares them in v.13 to the wandering stars). This is the same zophos (darkness) 2 Peter 2:4 talks about for Tartarus where rebel angels go. Seeing as how incarnated or manifested rebel angels were slain during the Flood, Peter is probably talking about the same spirits in prison whom Christ evangelized in 1 Peter 3, bringing at least some of the angels and authorities and powers into subjection to Him who before His resurrection had not been subject to Him yet.


11.) Matt 25:41 does not say the eonian fire is not prepared for humans; it can just as easily mean that humans are sharing in a punishment prepared first for the devil and his angels.


12.) Those who go into the LoF in the sheep and goat judgment, are those who had no pity on the least of Christ's flock (who are evidently in conditions corresponding to those being punished by God), despite being themselves the least of Christ's flock there on the scene: the baby-goats. And despite the baby-goats being surprised that they hadn't been serving Christ. The devil and his angels wouldn't be surprised at that, though they might be punished for being unmerciful, too. Unmerciful Christians would be surprised about this however! Similarly, this parallels the previous three judgment parables on lazy and uncharitable servants of Christ who shall be judged as such at His coming: the servant with one talanton (or one mina in Luke's report) tries to excuse himself from having not done the business of his Master (i.e. helping save the lost), by trying to flatter his master as a ruthless brigand! -- and receives the same punishment as the unforgiving servant earlier in Matt 18, being sent into the outer darkness where the wailing is and the gnashing of teeth. No doubt rebel angels are judged on the same basis, too, but the four parabolic warnings are pointless for being delivered to humans (and specifically to Christ's own disciples and apostles! -- the servants being put over other servants till the master returns) if they have no reference to a truly possible punishment for humans. Relatedly, in the Ezekiel 25 judgment parable of the sheep and the goats, which Jesus must have been referencing, YHWH as the Son of David comes to save the goats as well as the sheep from being abused by evil shepherds, rebel religious leaders of Israel being the targets in view. Rebel angels would tacitly fit that category, too, but certainly not exclusively.


13.) Those who enter into the reward prepared for them from the foundation of the world, are those who had mercy on the least of Christ's flock, despite being surprised to discover they were serving Christ after all by doing so. So they aren't Christians (or else they are the most ignorant Christians imaginable! -- which amounts to the same thing), but neither is there any indication they were being punished while in hades, for they had been serving Christ after all, and now (as you say) are being graced with understanding and joy over their Savior and ours, the Lord Jesus Christ.


I might have some other problems with your theory -- and certainly I don't deny the baby-goats include rebel angels, though by exactly that token I know not to interpret their punishment the way a baby goat hopelessly would! But those will suffice for now. It needs some polishing at least.

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Hope to digest your reply in time. So in a nutshell are you saying you understand that human beings will be punished in the Lake of Fire, but then be released sometime later beyond the end of the Bible?

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Thanks for the good feed back.

>Wouldn't it have made more sense to say that Tartarus gives up its dead.

That is a good point. I guess I am safer to strongly say that fallen angels will be judged on that Great Day, Jude 6 and that there is much support that the timing of this event is the GWT. My main point in this article was to show that fallen angels are included in the judgment of the last day. I still think there may be a connection from Thalaasa to Tartarus in the mind of John's Greek audience, but like you say the stronger connection could just as easily be to the sea in general. I had forgotten about the Matthew 8 connection and added it to my article here http://www.dgjc.org/content/optimism/fallen-angels-at-the-great-white-throne-judgment. Thanks.

>I do have some actual problems with the interpretation, though.
Fair enough.

>1)This part of the argument needs more specific details why the LoF wouldn't be a punishment subsequent to hades for humans...

My article above is only an appendix to my entire argument here http://www.dgjc.org/optimism. However, in a nutshell I see a distinction between punishment and damnation, between Hades and the LoF. Jesus loves even those punished in Hades, Psalm 139:8. I am not convinced that he loves those damned to the Lake of Fire, the fallen angels. Seems to me that the Scripture is the story of God's redemption of humanity and it pages end with the fulfillment of the restoration of humanity with Satan and his angels in the LoF.

>2) 20:11-15) makes no special distinction between whether the dead in the sea or the dead in hades are written in the BoL...

This is further defended in my whole book, to which the above article is just an appendix. Again in a nutshell I understand the BoL to be the record of all souls finally saved, the redeemed, saved from the LoF that is all humanity based on the vicarious atoning work for mankind. There are many who feel that names are added (or even deleted) from the BoL based on human action. However I think a better understanding is that the BoL contains the names of all those finally saved, whose sins are paid for, saved from the LoF, that is all humanity. The point is that the inverse of Revelation 20:15 is also true and a comfort to believers. Thus Revelation 20:15 stands as a comfort to the believing elect, a warning to the unbelieving elect, and condemnation to the non-elect.

>3) In RevJohn 3:5, Jesus warns the congregation at Sardis that if they don't repent of their evil deeds He's going to blot their names out of the BoL.

This is an excellent point. Do you think that the BoL is the list of those saved from temporary punishment in the LoF? I think there is a better understanding, namely that God is willing to tell the unbelieving elect that they are not elect, even that their names are blotted from the book, even though their name still remains and they are finally saved from the LoF! I understand the the BoL to be the list of those finally saved, predestined and elected, from before creation. I've written an interesting article here that could further explain my view http://www.dgjc.org/content/optimism/real-or-apparent-paradox. Please check it out.

>4) Jesus seriously warns people they could go into Gehenna

Certainly. However, this could be the fires which purify in this life or the fires of Hades could it not?

>5) Rev 21:8, the typical list of human sin -- not exclusive of the sin of rebel angels of course -- indicates those whose part shall be in the lake of fire

Certainly, but if we are judged by that verse alone then no one is saved, ever. Not even you and I. Instead this verse indicates the damnation of all who have committed these sins who have not had these sins paid for, whose names are not in the BoL. I have committed and still commit these sins, however, mankind is spared from the LoF because God's grace wrote our name's in the BoL. Also I understand Revelation 22:14-15 is an evangel call for the rebel elect to prepare for the GWT. There is one grand picture in view in Rev 21-22, not an evangel call after sentencing to the LoF. You might find this article interesting http://www.dgjc.org/content/optimism/how-can-you-say-revelation-21-8-does-not-apply-to-humans.

>6) The consuming fire warning of Heb 12:29 overtly applies to human readers of the epistle, and the context overtly includes human examples

That is a beautiful verse that certainly is not talking about the LoF or even punishment, but instead the burning up of our idols, our purification! God's consuming fire of love is burning down on each of us know as he allows our idols to crumble and replaces them with himself. I never thought fallen angels were in view here at all, but it is mankind that he is helping, Hebrews 2:16.

>7) ...Rev 14:9-13... the targets are humans who agreed to receive the mark of the beast... it also means they went into the LoF.

Rather the fires of Hades, for they worship the Beast who is still at large. The Beast is damned to the LoF before the Millenium and so those who worship him will be sentenced to the fires of Hades before the both the Millenium and the GWT. No one except the Beast and the False Prophet are mentioned as entering the LoF before the GWT.

>8) Heb 2:16... the Hebraist is saying that God raises up the descendent/seed (singular) of Abraham rather than raising up angels

That is a good point. I want to look at that further. Though the point might still be made that fallen angels are not raised up.

> Colossians 1:20 .... God does reconcile (atone), through the blood of the cross, all things which need reconciliation

I am not closed to the idea that the atonement of Christ eventually impacts even fallen angels. Though I have emphasized that Christ became a man and thus is the vicarious substitute for man, not angels. However, I also believe that the restoration of all things includes rocks, plants, and animals, in fact all creation. So Satan and his angels certainly are part of creation. The understanding I am trying to advance is that the Scripture is God's love letter to mankind and its pages conclude with all mankind restored and with the Devil and his angels suffering in the LoF. If you have time to read my entire argument here http://www.dgjc.org/optimism and would be grateful for hard questions in response.

>9) ...Isaiah 66:25, 11:6-10... There are several other scriptural passages indicating God will bring even the ultra-rebel dragon back into loyalty, too.

I am not convinced. Where is Isaiah 66:25? Actually Isaiah 66:22-24 conclude the pages of Isaiah with a picture of Revelation 21-22, that is ALL mankind saved and looking with horror on who? The defeated fallen angels.

>10) Jude 13 says the false teachers will be condemned to the same zophos as the angels which did not keep their own domain but abandoned their proper abode.

Sure, the fires of Hades or Tartarus. I have suggested that mankind and angels are punished in separate locations, Hades versus Tartarus. I need to see if there is further defense for this. My current argument is that only angels are explicitly mentioned has being sent to Tartarus, 2 Peter 2:4 and also the distinct difference in nature and final destiny of mankind versus fallen angels warrants different punishment and handling in the afterlife. Wouldn't separate compartment for unbelieving humans in Hades and fallen angels in Tartarus serve to help Jesus deliver appropriate punishments for each body and also mercy to humans? Furthermore I don't know if individuals being punished rub shoulders with each other, but the anger and rebellion of fallen angels seems to require their separation from humanity, especially in the afterlife.

>11) Matt 25:41 does not say the eonian fire is not prepared for humans it can just as easily mean that humans are sharing in a punishment prepared first for the devil and his angels.

Yes and that is how everyone who believes humans are eternally damned interprets the passage. And many universalists interpret the passage that way as well arguing that humans are sent to the LoF, but eventually saved from the LoF later, even beyond the pages of Scripture. I still think the stronger argument is to be made that afterlife punishment of humans is limited to Hades and that the body of subjects before Christ at the GWT includes both humans on the right and fallen angels on the left.

>12) ...The devil and his angels wouldn't be surprised at that, though they might be punished for being unmerciful, too.

I have made that case that even the Devil and his angels could in fact offer up those lame words, http://www.dgjc.org/content/optimism/you-are-wrong-about-matthew-25-31-46

> the four parabolic warnings are pointless... if they have no reference to a truly possible punishment for humans.

Certainly the parables are speaking to humans and urging our obedience. However, I am not convinced that the parables are parallel with the Sheep and Goat Judgment... in time. Instead the Lord takes his Throne at the Sheep/Goat/GWT for final judgment. The Lord is judging our decisions in time and finally at the end of this time.

>Relatedly, in the Ezekiel 25 judgment parable of the sheep and the goats, which Jesus must have been referencing.

Perhaps. Perhaps the positive mention of Goats in Ezekiel 25 is a hint that God will finally release fallen angels from the LoF sometime beyond the end of Scripture. That could be a sensible way to compare humans with fallen angels, that is as sheep versus goats. The Scripture do consistently maintain that mankind is distinct from even the beautiful and powerful angels, for we are made in God's image, while they are not.

>13) ... neither is there any indication they were being punished while in hades, for they had been serving Christ after all, and now (as you say) are being graced with understanding and joy over their Savior and ours, the Lord Jesus Christ.

So we agree that their incredulous response shows that they are someone other than Christians. Yay! Yet we do have major indication that these Sheep were just released from Hades. First the timing of the Sheep and Goat Judgment strongly corresponds with The Great White Throne Judgment, and it is placed after the Millenium. We do know that deceased Christians are raised at the return of Christ, however deceased unbelievers remain in Hades. We also know that these deceased unbelievers are extracted then at the end of the Millenium to stand before the GWT. So yes we do have strong indication that these people were just extracted from Hades and the fallen angels from Tartarus.

Thanks for any further comment. I you were willing to read my entire argument at http://www.dgjc.org/optimism I would be willing to make revision as the Lord leads from your input.

God bless.

[Dondi]

First of all, I am intrigued by the prospect you present as concerning the Sheep and the Goats being respectively the redeemed unbelieving and the fallen angels. It certainly bears some consideration and thought and on the outset is a logical alternative interpretation, especially for believers in EU.

But in addition to the objections Jason has made, I have a few other observations particularly concerning the parable in question:

1) My immediate thought was that this occurs when the Son of Man is coming into His Glory with all His holy angels. I would have thought that this would occur at the beginning of the Millenium, where Jesus rules with a rod of iron and peace reigns for 1000 years. But I'll grant that there will be a time afterward when the remaining rebellious nations are dealt with at the end of that period, so the judgement here could still come after that reign.

2) Be as it may, that brings me to the question about the term "nations". Now I know in you book you claim that it speaks of "ethos" as a type or group of beings and you catagorize them in two catagories as redeemed unbelievers and fallen angels. But the syntax in verse 32 "before him shall be gathered all nations" strongly suggest more than two groups here. Is "all" really just two? And besides, I don't know of any other passage that uses "ethos" or "nation" in the New Testament as something other than another country or state. If you can point out a passage that describes "ethos" as merely a type or group of people, I might consider it, but the vast majority of the use is clearly separated countries or states.

3) Furthermore, Acts 10:35 has Peter commending nations (ethos) as being judged by their righteous acts, and clearly speaking God not being a respector of persons in regard to the Gentiles: "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." This supports the idea of nations being judged by their actions, as suggested in the Sheep and the Goats. And I always point to people who use this passage to claim the judgement between the saved and unsaved individuals that the scripture teaches clearly that our judgement is not based on works, but on our faith in Christ. But one CAN speak in judgement of nations in regard to righteous works as shown in Acts 10:35.

4) So if you equate the judgement of the Sheep and Goats as that of the GWT judgment, again you are faced with the same problem that those facing the GWT are likewise judged "every man according to their works." Are we saved by the works of the Law or by faith in Christ?

5) Even if I should grant you that the Sheep are redeeming unbelievers and the Goats are fallen angels, I can see how the redeemed unbelievers might have opportunity to feed, give drink, heal, clothe, and visit prison (though realistically there would be some unbelievers who never did any of these things, redeemed or not), but I fail to see how the fallen angels would be afforded the same opportunity to feed, give drink, heal, clothe, and visit prison since these are actions requiring physical amenities while the fallen angels live in the spiritual realm. In what capacity would the fallen angels have opprotunity that they obviously have no means to physically accomplish? And would it even be fair to judge them on such basis?

6) On a positive note, I might buy the idea that fallen angels arebehind the spiritual condition of particular nations. In Daniel we note that the archangel Michael was delayed in answering Daniel's prayers due to the "prince of the kingdom of Persia" impeding Michael for 21 days. But if that were the case, I would also think that the Sheep and Goats judgement would be exclusively between good angels and evil angels, IMO. Perhaps Michael is being judged as a Sheep?

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>First of all, I am intrigued by the prospect
Yes, likewise, and I am hoping to get critical review of the idea here.

>But in addition to the objections Jason has made
I am hoping I gave enough reply to Jason above that discussion continues.

>1) ...I would have thought that this would occur at the beginning of the Millenium... [but] the judgement here could still come after that reign.

Yes perhaps. I am sure there are arguments for both sides. Has the question been debated in this forum before? Possible timing for the Matt 25 judgment could include before and after the Millenium. If it is after then it is synonymous with the GWT. Others may argue that the Matt 25 is not a distinct event, but happening over time. The timing is somewhat significant as it relates to the subjects we expect to be there.

>2) ...But the syntax in verse 32 "before him shall be gathered all nations" strongly suggest more than two groups here. Is "all" really just two?

Certainly more than two such as all the nationalities and varieties of human beings as well as all the varieties of angel kind. Angel kinds may even come of greater varieties than mankind. Thayer's and Vines both define 'ethnos' as 'a multitude, whether men or beasts, a company, a troop, a swarm.' The modern use of 'ethnic' group seems much more restrictive than the original sense. If the Holy Spirit would not use 'ethnos' to describe a mixed body of human and angel kind, what word would he use?

>3)... Acts 10:35...This supports the idea of nations being judged by their actions, as suggested in the Sheep and the Goats.

Certainly judged in real time. Does Acts 10:35 only have the Sheep/Goat judgment in view. Not sure, but I wouldn't think so.

>And I always point to people who use this passage to claim the judgement between the saved and unsaved individuals that the scripture teaches clearly that our judgement is not based on works, but on our faith in Christ. But one CAN speak in judgement of nations in regard to righteous works as shown in Acts 10:35.

That is a good point, but shouldn't we be reminded that when God judges our works that grace is never absent? Just because works are mentioned in Matthew 25 and also the GWT, does not mean that grace is not the foundational measure. Frankly I think is an amazing grace that God would accept the works of the Sheep. However, he does this only through his grace.

>4) ... the same problem that those facing the GWT are likewise judged "every man according to their works."

Answered above.

>5) ... I fail to see how the fallen angels would be afforded the same opportunity to feed, give drink, heal, clothe, and visit prison since these are actions requiring physical amenities while the fallen angels live in the spiritual realm.

Actually that is the primary function of angels, ministering spirits, doing God's bidding in the service of mankind. Fallen angels are simply angels who have rebelled from this task. Jason above suggested that "The devil and his angels wouldn't be surprised" like the goats appear to be on Jesus left. I likewise think it would be pretty lame of them to whine like the Goats did. Yet, we wouldn't think it odd if an unbelieving human would express the same. Consider that fallen angels are likewise simply sinners and easily deceived like ourselves. We also forget the angels and demons are people with mind, will, emotion, personality, and names. They are just not human people. In the end I think fallen angels could easily sound like this as well.

>6) On a positive note, I might buy the idea that fallen angels are behind the spiritual condition of particular nations. In Daniel...

Agreed, that is certainly true as you explained.

>I would also think that the Sheep and Goats judgement would be exclusively between good angels and evil angels

Why not? Based on what? The main point of my original post was that both humans and fallen angels are both present at the GWT judgment. 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 say they are being held for judgment on the Great Day. When do you suggest the Great Day is? Seems likely that this Great Day would get other mentioned in Scripture. Why not the GWT? Why not the same day as unbelieving mankind, just extracted from Hades? Also why does Revelation 20:13 mention the release of peoples from two locations? This all seems to point to both mankind and angel kind standing before their King. I haven't studied the possibility of human and angel cohabitation speculated in Genesis 6. However, if that is the case, it would seem even more fitting that these people would stand before the King together and the Lord will let it be known who lead the charge into sin in the first place and they will suffer his judgment.

I do thank you for the discussion. I have been feeling like I am on to a useful insight, but it must be tested with Scripture and the good opinions of other Christians and this seemed like an excellent place to have good discussion.

Hope to talk again soon, Jeff

[Dondi]

That is a good point, but shouldn't we be reminded that when God judges our works that grace is never absent? Just because works are mentioned in Matthew 25 and also the GWT, does not mean that grace is not the foundational measure. Frankly I think is an amazing grace that God would accept the works of the Sheep. However, he does this only through his grace.

I don't think you've grasped the meaning of grace, particularly when it comes to salvation. The actions of the Sheep and the Goats are determining their eternal destiny, as it were. Yet salvation for individuals isn't by works, but by grace, as described in Galatians 2:16:

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Now our faith can be augmented by works, as James tells us, but grace is independent of works, else grace is not grace. You cannot have it both ways. Paul makes that clear.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

Now our works that we do in Christ are judged, according to I Cor 3:1-15, but that is only after we are saved. Indeed, all our works can be burned up, yet we are still saved, according to this passage. And what works survive are a result of our being "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" (Eph 2:10), which is after salvation.

So what to make of Matthew's parable? It can't have anything to do with individual salvation, if the basis thereof is works. so something else must be judged hear. I still believe it is the nations.

But even then, there is hope that the nations will be saved. For example, Revelation 21;24 says, "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it." (in other word, the nations are subsequently allowed to enter the city). And later, there is a tree of life for the healing of the nations in Rev 22:2. If these were talking about saved nations, they wouldn't need healing, would they? These "kings of the earth", by the way, could be the same group mentioned in Rev 19:19 that come against the Lamb and His armies (there is discussion elsewhere of the forum concerning this idea).

The fact that the word "kings' is mentioned here strongly suggest that the nations involved are countries or states. Indeed, in this battle, the Lord will smite the nations and rule them with an iron rod. These nations would also be rebellious at the end of the Millenium in Rev 20:8, where Satan is released and deceives the "nations".

When one attempts to interpret scripture in a particular passage it is good practice to keep the meaning of the terms the same throughout. You cannot keep switching meaning to suit your taste. Therefore, nations throughout this passage of scripture has to mean nations.

Individuals are saved by grace. Nations are saved by works.

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Agreed on everything you said about grace, though we may have a different understanding of Matt 25.

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Thanks for all the comments thus far.

And thanks Dondi for clarifying that grace is completely apart from works. I am sure we understand the God's love the same way. I have even argued that the justification of the saved happened at the cross prior to our faith, and that faith is simply trusting in what Christ already accomplished, Romans 5:10. Those who say faith is the cause of justification might be guilty of adding condition to God's unconditional love. I understand faith is simply receiving our justification already completed. The gavel has already fallen for all mankind's aquital and now the Holy Spirit is persuading the elect to simply believe the good news. What I tried to say above was that the 'works' judgment mentioned in Matt 25 and the GWT is granted solely by grace. For example, even my good deeds now are nothing but filthy rags, and it is only by God's grace that they are accepted. More words might be needed than I have time to offer right now.

Regarding the Sheep and Goats, Matthew 25, and Revelation 20 I hope to pursue some more homework in light of this discussion. I hope I haven't too quickly asserted that the Sheep and Goat judgment is synonymous with the GWT. There is lots of evidence pointing in that direction. However, one's conclusions about the Millennial Kingdom will impact ones interpretation of these things. A pre-Millennial return of Christ more easily allows that Matt 25 is at his return. I have understood Christ's return to be pre-Millennial, but that Matt 25 is still after the Millennium.

Perhaps I was thinking too simply, but to me the history of redemption begins with a promise to the human family that someone is coming to reverse the works of the Devil. Jesus then came, became a human, and paid the sin debt for all humanity. The pages of Scripture then end with Satan and his demons sentenced to the Lake of Fire with humanity finally glorified and safe from all further sin and punishment. It would seem very very odd to me if the Bible, the given record of humanity's redemption, ended with with any humans still in the Lake of Fire that is prepared for the Devil and his angels.

I hope to further research my thesis that Matt 25 is the same as the GWT as well as Daniel 12. Thanks for any further ideas about this. Isn't the imagery of goats always reserved for the unredeemed, that is Satan and his angels? Instead the imagery for the unbelieving redeemed, mankind, is lost sheep. Also my current thesis understands that unbelieving mankind is held in Hades for the duration of the Millennial Kingdom while the resurrected believers serve with Christ on the Earth. Though this does seem very odd that God would keeps the believing redeemed separated from the unbelieving redeemed for such a long period of time. Thanks for any further thoughts on that question.

[Dondi]

The pages of Scripture then end with Satan and his demons sentenced to the Lake of Fire with humanity finally glorified and safe from all further sin and punishment. It would seem very very odd to me if the Bible, the given record of humanity's redemption, ended with with any humans still in the Lake of Fire that is prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Thank God, the scriptures don't actually end with the Lake of Fire or Rev 20,There are two glorious chapters to go, Rev 21 & 22. And as Jason mentioned, Rev 21:8, there are a list of different sinners who will have their part in the Lake of Fire (perhaps suggesting that once their part is over, they are free to go). And this verse is being mentioned AFTER the new heavens and new earth and the holy city coming down. I always thought it odd that the Lake of Fire is mentioned here, amongst so many positive verses about God being our God and no more tears, no more pain, nor more death etc. It may be just an additional warning about the events of the previous chapter, but the verse makes a point of listing specific sinners. And I'm not sure if rebel angels are capable of fullilling them all, they seem more geared to human sins. Do angels have the ability to perform sex as whoremongers, for example? In what way can they be sorcerers? (The Greek root word for "sorcerers" is pharmakeia from which we get our English word "pharmacy", which then begs the question: can angels get high?). So I'm not sure how inclusive you can be to say only rebel angels are in the Lake of Fire.

There are some on this forum who even believe that Revelation isn't the end of the story, that I Corinthians 15 gives the final account of history or the last age, where "Death is swallowed up in victory", including presumably the Second Death.

ETA: Jeff, I'm glad you have an open attitude about all this. As I've learned more (and still learning), I've had to adjust my position several times when my own ideas or opinions haven't panned out. I'm still fairly new to the idea of Universal Reconciliation, and hopeful that this is the reality of God's love for all his creatures, though I'm still not 100% convinced. But one thing is for sure: ever since I've opened up to the idea of UR, I've gained immense insights in scripture and learning from various people on this forum, not just about UR, but in biblical theology in general. There is so much to learn....

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My current position is that Rev 21:8 is speaking about the sins of the non-elect only, that is fallen angels. I've tried to make a case for it here, http://www.dgjc.org/content/optimism/how-can-you-say-revelation-21-8-does-not-apply-to-humans. The list in Rev 21:8 is so comprehensive that anyone who is not already glorified would be condemned by it! So I think there is a strong case to be made to say that Rev 21:8 serves to 1) condemn the non-elect whose sins are not atoned, 2) warn the unbelieving elect in order to drive them to Christ, and 3) comfort the believing elect who know our final destiny is determined by grace and not by our works whether good or bad. I think 1 Corinthians 15 does point to the salvation of the all the elect whether believing or unbelieving at the GWT when Hades is finally emptied and destroyed in the LoF. Note that 1 Corinthians 15:55 points in the direction of my understanding for this verse specifically praises the end of Hades, not the LoF. See the Textus Receptus and the NKJV.

Hope to talk further on these points. Thanks for the good feedback!

[JasonPratt]

Hope to digest your reply in time. So in a nutshell are you saying you understand that human beings will be punished in the Lake of Fire, but then be released sometime later beyond the end of the Bible?

I think the Bible talks about them being released from the LoF eventually before the end of the Bible -- RevJohn itself indisputably flashes forward and back quite a bit, and I think it even addresses this topic occasionally before it ends. But otherwise yes.

>1)This part of the argument needs more specific details why the LoF wouldn't be a punishment subsequent to hades for humans...

However, in a nutshell I see a distinction between punishment and damnation, [thus] between Hades and the LoF.

Okay, that would explain the missing part of the argument I was critiquing in point 1. But...

Scripturally, the term(s) translated condemnation ( == damnation) tend to be connected to terms involving punishment, and certainly tend to be connected to human condemnation and punishment. I don't see a clear distinction between the condemnation terms (per se) of Matt 25 for example compared to condemnation terms, krisis and krima, being used for threatening even apostles (and certainly other human beings) with coming punishment elsewhere in the NT. We've been discussing 2 Thess 1:8-9 (again!) recently for example, which in context is definitely about a punishment coming from God onto humans before the general resurrection, and the same term for judgment == condemnation is used there (and in the Greek version of Paul's OT references there) as in Matt 25. I could multiply examples a long way, but I'm not at the office with my gear this morning so I'll let this brief example suffice.

2) 20:11-15) makes no special distinction between whether the dead in the sea or the dead in hades are written in the BoL...

This is further defended in my whole book, to which the above article is just an appendix. Again in a nutshell I understand the BoL to be the record of all souls finally saved, the redeemed, saved from the LoF that is all humanity based on the vicarious atoning work for mankind. There are many who feel that names are added (or even deleted) from the BoL based on human action. However I think a better understanding is that the BoL contains the names of all those finally saved, whose sins are paid for, saved from the LoF, that is all humanity. The point is that the inverse of Revelation 20:15 is also true and a comfort to believers. Thus Revelation 20:15 stands as a comfort to the believing elect, a warning to the unbelieving elect, and condemnation to the non-elect.

I'm very fuzzy how Rev 20:15 per se is supposed to be a warning of condemnation to the non-elect (unless by the non-elect you only mean rebel angels not humans, who aren't in much position to read RevJohn anyway), much less a warning to the unbelieving elect since the BoL judgment doesn't apply to them at all on your theory: they're all in the BoL and won't be punished with the lake of fire! Maybe you meant to reference verses 12 and 13 instead? -- since being judged by the book of deeds might involve some kind of punishment yet not the lake of fire.

Also, "many feel that names are added or deleted from the BoL based on human action", thanks to Biblical testimony on that topic, including in RevJohn itself (as cited immediately afterward). It isn't just a feeling.

I think there is a better understanding, namely that God is willing to tell the unbelieving elect that they are not elect, even that their names are blotted from the book, even though their name still remains and they are finally saved from the LoF!

...yeah, aside from this not at all dealing with the data, I'm not much for the idea of God giving totally fake warnings which He doesn't even slightly intend. Among other problems, someone could very easily flip that concept around to the idea of God giving totally fake assurances of salvation to the non-elect which He doesn't even slightly intend -- as I've seen Calvs occasionally try in order to get around Biblical assurances that God intends and acts toward saving all sinners from sin! You could just as easily yourself flip your tactic around to explain away apparent Biblical testimony that even rebel angels will be saved from sin, as a fake assurance given to the non-elect.

I guess I could grant that this expedient would 'solve' the problem, but I couldn't imagine calling this a "better understanding".

4) Jesus seriously warns people they could go into Gehenna

Certainly. However, this could be the fires which purify in this life or the fires of Hades could it not?

I’m kind of surprised you didn’t bother to answer with, ‘I think there is a better understanding, namely that God is willing to tell the unbelieving elect that they may go into the unquenchable fire of Gehenna, even though God really has no intention at all of putting them there for any reason and certainly won’t do so.’ One completely fake warning of non-intended judgment is worth another; it isn’t like there are any signifiers either way to show the warning is fake.

That aside, yes I agree it can refer to the fires of Hades -- and from Mark 9:49-50 I can agree that the fires can purify in this life, too. Then again, I regard this fire (which involves salting for peace) to be our God the consuming fire, i.e. the Holy Spirit, with which Jesus baptizes people unto repentance and remission from sin (which still applies to the rebel Pharisees per the warning of Jesus and John the Baptist citing Malachi 3 and 4 on that topic). But then by extension no less a fire than the Holy Spirit would be used for the Lake of Fire judgment, either. I’m not fond of multiplying the number of distinctly different judgmental fires from God, when one judgmental fire, God Himself, accounts for everything.

Beyond that, are there linguistic connections to the LoF? Secondarily, yes: the warning is given against the apostles, including in Matt 18; Christ has evidently the same warning in view to the apostles in Matt’s sequel report regarding Peter trying to figure out if there’s a limit past which he doesn’t have to forgive a repentant brother; and the term for ‘torment’ used in that judgment parable is related to the term for ‘torment’ used for people apparently in the LoF in RevJohn 14’s flashforward to that coming judgment.

But I’ll grant the link isn’t necessarily ironclad thereby; and even if it was, you would only use that as evidence that Jesus was only pretending to threaten the apostles (or any other humans like the Pharisees) with a Gehenna punishment. You might as well save several steps and go straight to that defense, since by its nature no amount of apparent evidence to the contrary could ever count against it.

5) Rev 21:8, the typical list of human sin -- not exclusive of the sin of rebel angels of course -- indicates those whose part shall be in the lake of fire

Certainly, but if we are judged by that verse alone then no one is saved, ever. Not even you and I. Instead this verse indicates the damnation of all who have committed these sins who have not had these sins paid for, whose names are not in the BoL. I have committed and still commit these sins, however, mankind is spared from the LoF because God's grace wrote our name's in the BoL. Also I understand Revelation 22:14-15 is an evangel call for the rebel elect to prepare for the GWT. There is one grand picture in view in Rev 21-22, not an evangel call after sentencing to the LoF. You might find this article interesting http://www.dgjc.org/content/optimism/ho ... -to-humans.

It’s a good thing I wasn’t referring to “that verse alone” then, but including its context! Actually, this verse (and the subsequent one in Rev 22) indicates the people who are still impenitently fondling their sins -- and they’re being evangelized. The only distinction between them is a theoretical one you’re importing to save your theory; no such distinction exists in the text.

(In fact your own theory breaks up the “one grand picture in view in Rev 21-22” so that in one case the people so described are rebel elect being evangelized before the LoF, and in the other case the people so described are only rebel angels suffering after the LoF judgment. Rev 21-22 flashes around at least a little, so I don’t hold some choppiness per se against a theory there, but you have no superiority of one grand picture in view.)

[6) The consuming fire warning of Heb 12:29 overtly applies to human readers of the epistle, and the context overtly includes human examples

That is a beautiful verse that certainly is not talking about the LoF or even punishment, but instead the burning up of our idols, our purification! God's consuming fire of love is burning down on each of us know as he allows our idols to crumble and replaces them with himself. I never thought fallen angels were in view here at all, but it is mankind that he is helping, Hebrews 2:16.

See, when you say it isn’t talking about punishment, in the context of a chapter specifically talking about how God punishes people because He loves them and warning Christians not to fall away or they’re going to get punished, and citing the (rather physically fatal) punishments dealt out by God to rebel Israel in Moses’ day as a comparison -- then I have to think your theories strongly depend on ignoring any inconvenient contexts regardless of how loud those contexts are.

Granted, the Lake of Fire judgment itself isn’t specifically in view here; but a chapter indicating the fearsome but hopeful purpose of God’s punishment of sinners by God the consuming fire, would seem to be strong testimony about God’s basic intentions in inflicting punishment by spiritual fire. To get around that by denying it’s about punishment at all just seems overtly anti-contextual.

7) ...Rev 14:9-13... the targets are humans who agreed to receive the mark of the beast... it also means they went into the LoF.

Rather the fires of Hades, for they worship the Beast who is still at large. The Beast is damned to the LoF before the Millenium and so those who worship him will be sentenced to the fires of Hades before the both the Millenium and the GWT. No one except the Beast and the False Prophet are mentioned as entering the LoF before the GWT.

Well, there’s two humans working with Satan who went into the LoF alive; the distinction in Rev 19:20 being that those two went in alive and “those who did bow before his image” went in after being slain. (Though I’ll provisionally grant the grammar might read better that “those who did bow before his image” were deceived by the FP.)

But the reason I mentioned Rev 14 was that the imagery there and at the start of Rev 15 corresponds to the purifying bath in the Temple before the mercy seat of the ark, which was regarded as a basin or sea of fire (with physical mirrors in the basin to reflect and cast light around for a literal poetic effect so to speak). This also happens, not by coincidence, to correspond with the extra phrase tacked onto many copies of Mark 9 (some of them very early) about all sacrifices being salted with salt, in reference to everyone being salted with the unquenchable fire of Gehenna. And the brimstone imagery comes back to be applied to the lake that burns with fire and brimstone later at Rev 19:20, 20:10, and 21:8.

Rev 14:10 doesn’t have to mean that people are entering the LoF before the GWT, but it can easily mean they’re going to eventually. (Or as I would say, that the purifying fire and brimstone, sulfur being an ancient extreme medical remedy like fire in the ancient world and still a main antibiotic base today, starts to work on impenitent sinners in hades before the general resurrection, too.) The connections between them are very strong.

Skipping past Heb 2:16 for now, since you want to look into that.

9) ...Isaiah 66:25, 11:6-10... There are several other scriptural passages indicating God will bring even the ultra-rebel dragon back into loyalty, too.

I am not convinced. Where is Isaiah 66:25?

You might have figured from my detail that I made a typo, and checked back one chapter; I meant Isaiah 65: 25. It’s a pretty famous verse.

Actually Isaiah 66:22-24 conclude the pages of Isaiah with a picture of Revelation 21-22, that is ALL mankind saved and looking with horror on who? The defeated fallen angels.

But since you mention the end of Isaiah 66 -- this is the verse Christ quotes in Mark 9 / Matt 18 (and earlier in Matt 5’s parallel warning if I recall correctly) involving Gehenna. So now you can have fun deciding whether this applies to the LoF judgment or not after all. But from Isaiah’s own perspective it applies to humans being slain at the coming of YHWH and the survivors being appalled by it; there’s a parallel scene in Ezekiel or Jeremiah (at the house right now so I’d have to check my notes at the office) where God gives instructions on how the survivors will have to send teams out for years to properly collect and bury and/or burn the dead, and how even after that’s done some people will be assigned to check for remaining bones and flag them for proper removal and burial later. Isaiah doesn’t go into anything like that detail, but he’s quite explicit about them being the corpses of men (iysh) who transgressed against God.

10) Jude 13 says the false teachers will be condemned to the same zophos as the angels which did not keep their own domain but abandoned their proper abode.

Sure, the fires of Hades or Tartarus. I have suggested that mankind and angels are punished in separate locations, Hades versus Tartarus. I need to see if there is further defense for this. My current argument is that only angels are explicitly mentioned has being sent to Tartarus, 2 Peter 2:4 and also the distinct difference in nature and final destiny of mankind versus fallen angels warrants different punishment and handling in the afterlife. Wouldn't separate compartment for unbelieving humans in Hades and fallen angels in Tartarus serve to help Jesus deliver appropriate punishments for each body and also mercy to humans? Furthermore I don't know if individuals being punished rub shoulders with each other, but the anger and rebellion of fallen angels seems to require their separation from humanity, especially in the afterlife.

It makes no difference if only angels are mentioned being sent to Tartarus in 2 Peter 2:4, if the parallel statements indicate humans are sent to the same darkness. I could also reply that the Tartarus punishment is explicitly compared even in 2 Peter to humans being punished by divine power, but I can grant that this doesn’t prevent a distinction being read into the punishments from elsewhere. The distinction has to be read into from elsewhere, though, not positively argued from these verses which don’t indicate a special distinction; on the contrary the explicit point whether in 2 Peter or its Jude parallel is that certain humans get punished like fallen angels.

And in fact your main defense is that you’re reading the distinction of different final destinies in from elsewhere: wouldn’t the different final destinies require a distinction between the same darkness mentioned for fallen angels and some human evildoers, etc.? Well, yes, begging the question like that would require a distinction being foisted into the text, but that’s not exactly a great defense.

As to whether rebel angels and fallen humans interact with one another in spiritual punishment or in physical punishment (if rebel angels are provided bodies for that later, which I think is quite tenable), I’m willing to be agnostic and can go either way -- I don’t think it’s intrinsically impossible, and if it helps God reach certain goals then I could see Him doing it. I don’t offhand recall direct testimony of interaction in punishment, only that rebel humans and rebel angels go into similar imprisonment.

11) Matt 25:41 does not say the eonian fire is not prepared for humans it can just as easily mean that humans are sharing in a punishment prepared first for the devil and his angels.

Yes and that is how everyone who believes humans are eternally damned interprets the passage. And many universalists interpret the passage that way as well arguing that humans are sent to the LoF, but eventually saved from the LoF later, even beyond the pages of Scripture.

Regardless, you highly stressed the verse as positive testimony for your position; I’m just pointing out that the verse itself doesn’t exclude humanity. Neither does Jesus say the eonian fire is prepared for YOU angels of the devil; the grammar indicates Jesus is talking to group X (not the devil or his angels) about group Y (the devil and his angels).

12) ...The devil and his angels wouldn't be surprised at that, though they might be punished for being unmerciful, too.

I have made that case that even the Devil and his angels could in fact offer up those lame words, http://www.dgjc.org/content/optimism/yo ... w-25-31-46

I'll look into that argument later, though in the best case it will have to be somewhat ad hoc. So will any explanation for why this parable is grouped with three previous warning parables aimed at misbehaving Christians (as you yourself acknowledge); and for why humans are in view in the Ezekiel 25 parallel to the judgment -- you might as well default back to a fake warning against humans here and in those three prior parables, too.

Your reply should also, perhaps most importantly, account for how even the rebel angels must necessarily be among the least of Christ’s flock right there on the scene; consequently any interpretation of hopeless punishment for rebel angels as the least of Christ’s flock puts the interpreter into the position of the least of Christ’s flock being punished for having no saving mercy on the least of Christ’s flock!

the four parabolic warnings are pointless... if they have no reference to a truly possible punishment for humans.

Certainly the [three prior judgment] parables are speaking to humans and urging our obedience. However, I am not convinced that the parables are parallel with the Sheep and Goat Judgment... in time. Instead the Lord takes his Throne at the Sheep/Goat/GWT for final judgment. The Lord is judging our decisions in time and finally at the end of this time.

It can hardly be clearer that the Lord is judging the merciful and unmerciful decisions (or at least the true attitudes) of persons in the sheep/goat judgment, too; which fits the general concept, even if the prior three judgments refer to a punishment coming before the general resurrection and the last judgment refers to a post-resurrection punishment. There is literally nothing in the sheep-goat parable to indicate that the apostles should have understood it to refer to the judgment only of rebel angels, a point they would have naturally already believed.

Perhaps the positive mention of Goats in Ezekiel 25 is a hint that God will finally release fallen angels from the LoF sometime beyond the end of Scripture.

Perhaps, but more to the point the rebel shepherds (and the sheep and the goats) are all human in Ezekiel 25, which lends that much more weight to humans being primarily in view at Matt 25.

So we agree that their incredulous response shows that [the sheep] are someone other than Christians. Yay!

Though this means now the judgment parable (on your theory) is about good non-Christians on one hand (surprise) being contrasted to evil rebel angels (no surprise).

Yet we do have major indication that these Sheep were just released from Hades.

I didn’t say they weren’t just released from Hades; I said there’s no indication they were being punished in Hades. But looking back, I notice now you didn’t say they were being punished in hades either, so we actually have no disagreement on this point. Sorry, that was my mistake; I should have paid better attention.

Dondi makes a good point I think about “ethos” referring to human groups (and typically pagan ones). I might add that Paul in Rom 2 effectively says Christ can judge in favor of those who do not know the Torah based on how well they’ve been cooperating with Him by means of the Spirit of the Law He sends to all men. C. S. Lewis, and his stepson Christian missionary Douglas Gresham, connected those two scriptures together; but it isn’t meant to be salvation by good works, rather that Christ judges our faith in Him by our works even where we don’t explicitly know or accept Him yet.

I’m willing to grant that the correct attitude is what is important rather than physical opportunities or not; thus whether rebel angels do or do not have opportunities to do physical charity is irrelevant in principle. On the other hand, if (as I argue) the attitude in question is the attitude toward people who have been punished by God (the list being typical of divine punishments, and the connection being made between the baby-goats and the least of Christ’s flock), then rebel angels are the first persons I would think of as having no mercy toward other people. But then neither could humans be excluded from that judgment -- as in fact they are not in at least one of the three prior judgments against lazy or uncharitable or oppressive servants of Christ! (The talenton judgment, like the mina judgment, being aimed against people who opt out of doing the work of Christ while He’s away on the ground that they think Christ is equivalent to an unmerciful bandit chief.)

Isn't the imagery of goats always reserved for the unredeemed, that is Satan and his angels?

I’m not sure I’d want to press that too far even in the case of the unredeemed per se, but it’s definitely used for humans sometimes, such as in the relevant Ezekiel 25 parallel.

Instead the imagery for the unbelieving redeemed, mankind, is lost sheep.

The term at Matt 25, and usually in the NT including the Gospels, refers to any flock of small herd animals, including mixed flocks. The 100th sheep (as in the Synoptics including earlier in GosMatt) and the Good Shepherd (as in GosJohn) could just as easily refer to goats, and the earliest Christian art on this subject includes goats possibly more often than sheep per se! (Maybe because goats are so willful and need more training.) The distinction at Matt 25 anyway is between the probaton on one hand and baby-goats on the other, so it’s a mature possibly mixed flock compared to immature hard to train animals.

[JasonPratt]

Phew, man my BBCoding in that reply, sorry. I've repaired it like 5 times; partly thanks to Microsoft Word (where I composed it) adding fancy quotes to the coding. There may still be some goofs left over tracing the quotes and replies; I see an extra {/quote} right now I ought to delete...

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>I'm very fuzzy how Rev 20:15 per se is supposed to be a warning of condemnation to the non-elect (unless by the non-elect you only mean rebel angels not humans, who aren't in much position to read RevJohn anyway)

I think you misread my sentence. Here it is again, "Thus Revelation 20:15 stands as a comfort to the believing elect, a warning to the unbelieving elect, and condemnation to the non-elect." There is no "warning" of condemnation to the non-elect, but only condemnation for sinners whose sins are not paid for, the non-elect. I understand this to be only fallen angels. Certainly the Holy Spirit is not writing to the fallen angels. The non-elect can do nothing to become elect anyway. That is the whole point of electing grace. The warning however is to the unbelieving elect, that is non-Christians. They refuse to trust Christ and so the gospel tells them that IF Christ is not their savior then they are eternally condemned because salvation is only possible through Christ. Meanwhile the gospel also says that Christ IS their Savior! Get it? The gospel is a warm invitation to the contrite, but a whip to the self-justified.

>much less a warning to the unbelieving elect since the BoL judgment doesn't apply to them at all on your theory: they're all in the BoL and won't be punished with the lake of fire! Maybe you meant to reference verses 12 and 13 instead? -- since being judged by the book of deeds might involve some kind of punishment yet not the lake of fire.

No, I meant Rev 20:15. I understand the BoL to be the list of those predestined from before the foundation of the world, both believing and unbelieving elect. The BoL judgment certainly applies to all in that whoever hears about it is awakened to the fact that our eternal destiny rests in the hands of another, the gracious Lord Jesus.

>Also, "many feel that names are added or deleted from the BoL based on human action", thanks to Biblical testimony on that topic, including in RevJohn itself (as cited immediately afterward). It isn't just a feeling.....yeah, aside from this not at all dealing with the data

Actually I think it is a better fit with the data. How would you add Hosea 2:23, Proverbs 26:4-5, Jeremiah 20:7 into your math? Faith in Christ has given me confidence that my name and the names of all humanity are in the BoL from before the foundation of the world, predestined to final salvation and glorification. However, Jesus is perfectly willing to answer the fool according to his foolishness. He tells the unbelieving elect, his lost sheep, that they are not his sheep. Did you read my article here? http://www.dgjc.org/content/optimism/real-or-apparent-paradox.

>I'm not much for the idea of God giving totally fake warnings which He doesn't even slightly intend.

Me neither. But neither does the Holy Spirit waste time trying to reason with the unreasonable. He has craftier tactics than that. The label of 'fake warnings' does not respect God's designs in Hosea 2:23, Proverbs 26:4-5, Jeremiah 20:7. I hope I am never accused of saying that God gives so called 'fake warnings.' Yet he does say to his rebellious lost sheep, 'you are not my sheep.'

> Among other problems, someone could very easily flip that concept around to the idea of God giving totally fake assurances of salvation to the non-elect which He doesn't even slightly intend.

That would be a problem.

>I’m kind of surprised you didn’t bother to answer with, ‘I think there is a better understanding, namely that God is willing to tell the unbelieving elect that they may go into the unquenchable fire of Gehenna, even though God really has no intention at all of putting them there for any reason and certainly won’t do so.’

Hardly!!!! I read a number of Universalists books filled with gooey 'God is love stuff' further suggesting that any mention of judgment in the Scriptures was human error. The Scriptures are clear to me that unbelieving mankind is punished in this life and in Hades if they remain unrepentant. The Scriptures are further clear that these same people are finally released from Hades.

>One completely fake warning of non-intended judgment is worth another; it isn’t like there are any signifiers either way to show the warning is fake.

As a believer Proverbs 26:4-5 is a most excellent signifier in helping me understand how the Lord speaks to the foolish unbelieving. In fact it is his very recipe that he shares with us, explicitly stated, and also demonstrated by Christ.

>That aside, yes I agree it can refer to the fires of Hades -- and from Mark 9:49-50 I can agree that the fires can purify in this life, too. Then again, I regard this fire (which involves salting for peace) to be our God the consuming fire, i.e. the Holy Spirit, with which Jesus baptizes people unto repentance and remission from sin.

I would see one small distinction between the consuming fire which is purifying believers and burning up our idols versus the punishing fires of Hades. The one is upon the regenerate whereas the other upon the unregenerate. The one fans the flame of life he planted in us, the other simply punishes the wicked dead while they remain unbelieving.

>It’s a good thing I wasn’t referring to “that verse alone” then, but including its context! Actually, this verse (and the subsequent one in Rev 22) indicates the people who are still impenitently fondling their sins -- and they’re being evangelized. The only distinction between them is a theoretical one you’re importing to save your theory; no such distinction exists in the text.

Hmmm I don't think so. Electing grace is the foundation behind every word of Scripture. If the Holy Spirit doesn't mention it explicitly each time that doesn't mean it is absent, even in Revelation 21:8.

>(In fact your own theory breaks up the “one grand picture in view in Rev 21-22” so that in one case the people so described are rebel elect being evangelized before the LoF, and in the other case the people so described are only rebel angels suffering after the LoF judgment. Rev 21-22 flashes around at least a little, so I don’t hold some choppiness per se against a theory there, but you have no superiority of one grand picture in view.)

Actually I was thinking it was my view that maintained the grand picture of Rev 21-22. I see these chapters as speaking to the present audience about the whole grand climax of this age with the GWT, the sentencing of the Devil and his angels to the LoF, and the glorification of the redeemed to live joyfully ever after with Christ. So I beg to be understood that I do see the grand picture. Rev 22 is not words for some future audience after the GWT, but they are words for us now to prepare for the GWT! Rev 22 is not a gospel call to those in the LoF, but a gospel call to us now for the elect to believe and make ready for the day when every tear is wiped away for the redeemed at the GWT and mankind is finally saved from all future pain and punishment.

>See, when you say it isn’t talking about punishment, in the context of a chapter specifically talking about how God punishes people because He loves them and warning Christians not to fall away or they’re going to get punished,

Sorry I misspoke there. Certainly loving punishment and we also agree that his consuming fire is not condemnation or eternal damnation.

>Well, there’s two humans working with Satan who went into the LoF alive;

Can you prove to me that they are human and not angelic?

>You might have figured from my detail that I made a typo, and checked back one chapter; I meant Isaiah 65: 25. It’s a pretty famous verse.

Sorry, my fault. I didn't know what you were pointing to.

>But since you mention the end of Isaiah 66 -- this is the verse Christ quotes in Mark 9 / Matt 18 (and earlier in Matt 5’s parallel warning if I recall correctly) involving Gehenna. So now you can have fun deciding whether this applies to the LoF judgment or not after all.

Thanks, good point there. I hope to look into that further. That could help serve to place Matt 25 before the Millenium at Christ's return. Then unbelieving mankind is punished in the aionian fires of Hades and finally saved at the GWT. In that view the phrase "prepared for the Devil and his angels" could be understood to say that unbelieving humans will share in some of the punishing fires that are finally prepared for and continue on for only the Devil and his angels beyond the GWT.

Hey by the way you haven't explained your understanding of why the Holy Spirit would say explicitly that these aionian fires are prepared for the Devil and his angels. Why would he say that except that these fires are distinctly prepared for the devil and his angels and NOT prepared for mankind?

>I’m willing to be agnostic and can go either way -- I don’t think it’s intrinsically impossible, and if it helps God reach certain goals then I could see Him doing it. I don’t offhand recall direct testimony of interaction in punishment, only that rebel humans and rebel angels go into similar imprisonment.

My main point was that fallen angels will stand before judgment at some point future. I guess your point is that I have not shown enough evidence to say that angels are punished separately from men. Perhaps that is a sidebar point.

>Regardless, you highly stressed the verse as positive testimony for your position; I’m just pointing out that the verse itself doesn’t exclude humanity. Neither does Jesus say the eonian fire is prepared for YOU angels of the devil; the grammar indicates Jesus is talking to group X (not the devil or his angels) about group Y (the devil and his angels).

Humans are not explicitly excluded, except by the phrase "for the Devil and his angels." Understanding the timing of this judgment also seems important. If you are placing it at Christ's return before the Millenium, then there is time for wicked mankind to be punished and yet be finally saved at the GWT. However, in your case you also understand that the GWT is not the final judgment. Seems clear that we both agree that wicked mankind will be punished and that we both share the happy conclusion that all mankind is finally saved, but we are interpreting the timing and subjects of Matt 25 and Rev 20 differently.

>I'll look into that argument later, though in the best case it will have to be somewhat ad hoc. So will any explanation for why this parable is grouped with three previous warning parables aimed at misbehaving Christians (as you yourself acknowledge);

Yes we need to focus conversation on the timing of Matthew 25. Are you saying that Matt 25 is the same as the GWT? To me the GWT is the final judgment with humanity glorified and the Devil and his angels in the LoF. However, I think you are saying the GWT is not the end and so you are fine with saying unbelieving mankind are the goats on the left because they can be finally saved sometime after the GWT. Yet maybe my timing for Matt 25 is wrong and it is before the Millenium. Thus unbelieving mankind will have punishments to suffer before their glorification at the final judgment at the GWT.

> and for why humans are in view in the Ezekiel 25 parallel to the judgment

Is that the right reference? I would like to see the OT parallel. I didn't see sheep and goats in the Ezekiel 25.

>-- you might as well default back to a fake warning against humans here and in those three prior parables, too.

No! God's warnings are not fake, yet he is willing to tell lost sheep and they are not his sheep.

>There is literally nothing in the sheep-goat parable to indicate that the apostles should have understood it to refer to the judgment only of rebel angels,

The sheep and goat judgment does not seem to be a parable to me, but a prophecy of the judgment to come at a very specific time, when Jesus arrays himself on his throne for the final judgment of his subjects. When you say there is literally nothing to indicate that the judgment of fallen angels is on the left, that is true except for the phrase, "prepared for the Devil and his angels."

>Dondi makes a good point I think about “ethos” referring to human groups (and typically pagan ones).

I quoted Thayer above on that point.

Great discussion. Thanks!

In the interest of promoting the most beneficial discussion on this post I make a request. I would like to focus the discussion on one point going forward, that is the timing of the Sheep and Goat Judgment. I currently understand the Sheep and Goat Judgment to be synonymous with the Great White Throne Judgment and also the final judgment for the redeemed on the right and the unredeemed on the left. The timing of the Sheep and Goat Judgment is relevant to the many points made above, especially whether it is understood to be pre-millenial, post-millenial, a parable, an on going event, or presently happening real time in the heavenlies.

So what are your arguments for the timing of the Sheep and Goat Judgment?

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A few quick reasons to suggest that the Matthew 25 Sheep and Goat Judgment and the Revelation 20 Great White Throne Judgment are the same event after the Millennial Kingdom.

1. Jesus sits on a glorious throne in both cases.
2. Plural angels in Matthew 25 versus a singular angel in 1 Thess 4:16 at Christ return.
3. The picture of Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 is equally grand.
4. Daniel 12 also seems parallel, but the OT does not forecast both a grandiose judgment at Christ return and again at the commencement of eternity.
5. At the Lord's return will he remove the larger part of humanity from the earth, that is unbelievers, and start the Millennium with believers only?

Here is my proposed timeline http://www.dgjc.org/content/optimism/hope-in-jesus

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While reflecting on the good input above and re-reading a number of Scriptures a couple of thoughts about miscellaneous objections above have come to mind.

1. I proposed that the dead bodies gazed upon by all mankind in Isaiah 66:24 are actually embodied demons. It was objected that the Hebrew 'enowsh' means human being and cannot mean angelic. However, this word is used of the angels that visited Abraham and destroyed Sodom. So it would not break any rules of interpretation to apply it to fallen angels in Isaiah 66:24. Thus even Isaiah 66 points to the final victory of God's grace for mankind.

2. I had proposed that Isaiah 66 points to the final victory of grace for mankind and the defeat of Satan and his angels. However, it was objected that Mark 9:42-50 uses the same expression 'worm does not die and the fire is not quenched' as Isaiah 66:24. Mark 9 certainly is not a warning to demons, but to unbelieving humans. One possibility is that I am wrong about Isaiah 66 and that is does speak about the punishment of wicked human beings. Another possibility is that in Mark 9 Jesus is allowing wicked unbelieving mankind to fear the judgment that will come upon the fallen angels, the non-elect, even though all mankind will be finally saved from the judgment reserved for fallen angels. This pattern is evident a number of places in Scripture and is more than reasonable to let those who reject Christ's atonement to think they have the destiny of those who are not atoned. Yet another possibility is that Isaiah 66 is not speaking about final judgment and salvation, but instead judgments at Christ's return before the Millenial Kingdom begins. Thus wicked humans can still suffer for an age in Hades before final salvation at the Great White Throne Judgment.

3. I also proposed that Satan, the 1st Beast, and the False Prophet are all fallen angels. These three beings are the only people explicitly mentioned by name as being thrown into the Lake of Fire. I have written further about this thesis here http://www.dgjc.org/content/optimism/revelation-20-10. It was objected above that the Beast and False Prophet are human. However, after reading Revelation again I stumbled upon verse 16:13. This verse communicates that these three beings share of common nature of being the source of evil spirits and the spirit of demons. Humans are not the source of the demonic, but instead humans are attacked and possessed by the demonic. This seems like further evidence that these three beings are the demonic leaders of the rebellion against God with Satan as their ring leader.

4. I also finished reading Terms for Eternity: Aionios and Aidios in Classical and Christian Texts by Ilaria Ramelli and David Konstan. They defend that 'aion' more generally means 'age' or 'eon' as most in this forum would agree. However, they also note that the definitive Greek word for eternal 'aidios' is only used twice the Bible, once in Romans 1:20 concerning God and once in Jude 6 concerning the bonds on fallen angels. Since Ramelli and Konstan argue even for the salvation of Satan they conclude that 'aidios' in Jude 6 must mean transcending the ages, but not finally eternal. They reason thus because these demons are being 'held for judgment' thus there must be an end to these 'aidios' bonds after their judgment. However, it could also be that these demons with 'aidios' bonds are held in Thalaasa to be extracted for sentencing at the Great White Throne Judgment and then with the 'aidios' bonds still on they are cast into the Lake of Fire. Thus they are held for judgment, but the 'aidios' bonds are not released as they are cast into the Lake of Fire. Further, if the Sheep and Goat Judgment is synonymous with the Great White Throne Judgment and with the Great Judgment Day for the imprisoned angels, then it is clear that the goats are held for judgment and further sentenced to the Lake of Fire. So the 'aidios' bonds do not end at the Great Day of their judgment, but continue further.

5. That all said I do want to do further study concerning the Biblical arguments for an 'apokatastasis' that could include the salvation of even the fallen angels sentenced to the Lake of Fire. Can anyone point me to further resources on the meaning of 'kolasis' from Matthew 25:46? Some resources indicate 'punishment, torment, etc'. However, I know others have used the argument that the word only means loving correction or correction with a goal to restoration. Actually the only other Biblical use in 1 John 4:18 does not mean loving correction, but merely the fruit of fear, that is torment. I wonder if the arguments for the meaning of 'kolasis' as only corrective punishment aren't stretched because of the conclusion that human beings are sent to 'aion kolasis'. If we think human beings are sent there, but believe they are finally saved, then we need to understand 'kolasis' as corrective. However, if the goats on Jesus left are fallen angels only, then the puzzle pieces fit together more easily.

Thanks for all the comments above. I continue to believe that the Lake of Fire is prepared only for the Devil and his angels. However, I may be agnostic about the duration of the torment to be endured in the Lake of Fire by the Devil and his angels. The Scriptures obviously begin with rebellious Satan tempting mankind into the fall and end with all mankind redeemed with every tear wiped away and Satan and his angels in torment in the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:10 says Satan will be sentenced to the Lake of Fire for 'aion aion'. So when is the end of 'aion aion'? If there is an end to that it sure seems to happen well after the last word of Scripture.