Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Faith

Arguments/positions in defense of Evangelical Universalism.

Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:23 pm

Geoffrey wrote:A member of the Orthodox Church is reluctantly allowed through economia (but certainly not encouraged) to marry a non-Orthodox Christian who A) has received trinitarian baptism...


What is "Trinitarian Baptism"? Does it refer merely to the baptizer pronouncing the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"?

Peter's word to the Jews (who were responsible for the death of Christ) cut them to the heart. When they asked, "Men, brothers, what should we do?", Peter replied as follows:

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Much later, Peter again instructed those who had received the Holy Spirit to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 10:48 And he [Peter] commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ...

If it is absolutely necessary to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, then Peter must have gotten it wrong. Is that your position?
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:11 pm

Eusebius wrote:Hi HFPZ,

Well I re-visited the link you provided (thank you for that) re: days in the Genesis account.

Here is something they wrote:

"24-hours days - Day 1 Next, let's examine the Genesis days to see if they fit the 24-hour interpretation. Many things happen n the first day. God created the entire universe, including the earth. God also began the period of daylight and night on the earth. Although science tells us that these events took much more than 24 hours, there is nothing in the biblical text that would clearly indicate that the day could not be 24 hours long.3 The 24-hour interpretation passes the test for the first day."


Of course I disagree with their idea above that God created the universe, including the earth on the first day. Genesis doesn't say such.
I am of the persuasion that the spirit of God creating a vibrational frequency over the waters separated the waters and also the creation of light is the summation of what God did on the first day of making the earth habitable again. Remember, God did not create the earth a chaos. Therefore the creation of the heavens and earth and becoming a chaos etc. did not occur on day one.


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You are quoting from the scholarly article in Science and God at Genesis Clearly Teaches that the Days Were Not 24 Hours

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I was curious what the Protestant site Got Questions, had to say at:


Creation Day 1 (Genesis 1:1-5)
God created the heavens and the earth. “The heavens” refers to everything beyond the earth, outer space. The earth is made but not formed in any specific way, although water is present. God then speaks light into existence. He then separates the light from the dark and names the light “day” and the dark “night.” This creative work occurs from evening until morning – one day.


So back to your quote:

Eusebius wrote:
Of course I disagree with their idea above that God created the universe, including the earth on the first day. Genesis doesn't say such.


How do you reconcile your statement, with the responses of the Got Questions and God and Science sites? Why are you right and why are they wrong? I would add that God and Science would go for an old earth and more than a 24 hour times 7 creation framework. Got Questions would look at a literal 24 hour times 7 framework.

Or should I just chalk this up, to the problems of Sola Scriptura and everyone's individual spin on Biblical exegesis? A universe where things like a Full Pretetist position and everything is Divine Mind, from Mary Baker Eddy - can have equal credence and Biblical exegesis:?: :lol:

To be fair, both Davo and MBE, do a great job (of presenting and defending) - their respective Biblical viewpoints. :D

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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:36 pm

Paidion wrote:
Geoffrey wrote:A member of the Orthodox Church is reluctantly allowed through economia (but certainly not encouraged) to marry a non-Orthodox Christian who A) has received trinitarian baptism...


What is "Trinitarian Baptism"? Does it refer merely to the baptizer pronouncing the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"?

Peter's word to the Jews (who were responsible for the death of Christ) cut them to the heart. When they asked, "Men, brothers, what should we do?", Peter replied as follows:

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Much later, Peter again instructed those who had received the Holy Spirit to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 10:48 And he [Peter] commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ...

If it is absolutely necessary to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, then Peter must have gotten it wrong. Is that your position?


There are those who believe the sacred names must be used for baptism to be valid. Using YHWH and YASHUA in their minds is a must to get to the party. :?: :cry:
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby davo » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:31 pm

Eusebius wrote:We know Mt. Everest was not as high in Noah's day as it is today. Therefore that is a scientific fact.

Sorry… BUT you don’t know that at all. It’s fine to believe that BUT you cannot provide that as “scientific fact”. Zombie’s cartoon below shows your position on this perfectly…

Image

The FACT that you can claim geological anomalies to bolster one position BUT THEN will not acknowledge or afford same in terms of the possibility for a geological anomaly for the other makes all your claims highly questionable.

For those who don’t mind having their thinking nudged… these short video clips below shed a broader light on Genesis-Creation account.







“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Geoffrey » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:42 pm

Paidion wrote:If it is absolutely necessary to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, then Peter must have gotten it wrong. Is that your position?


The Orthodox faith is nothing if not the faith of Peter.

The problem is those pesky heretics. For two thousand years they have incessantly distorted the faith. Perhaps a good name for heresy in general would be Legion, since it seems they have countless ways of distorting things. They take good old terms, empty them of Orthodoxy, and fill them up with heresy and proclaim, "Hey, we believe in _______ too!"

Consequently, the Orthodox Church has had to ever more rigorously define its terms. This was the main task of the Nine Ecumenical Councils (the first held in A. D. 325 and the ninth in A. D. 1341-51).

Let me give a hypothetical example. Suppose someone in the circle of assemblies you attend, Paidion, legally changed his name to "Jesus" and started claiming that he was Jesus of Nazareth returned to planet Earth from outer space. Further suppose that he taught that all of the miracles recounted in the Bible were accomplished by highly advanced nanotechnology beamed down from the starship that was orbiting the earth, commanded by the astronaut named Yahweh. Said astronaut came down to earth in a small space ship, met a fetching young Jewish girl named Mary, impregnated her the typical way, then returned to his starship. Jesus, of course, was resuscitated by Yahweh's nanotechnology and beamed up to the mother ship accompanied by some of its crew. Let us further suppose that this Jesus started getting a lot of followers in your circle of assemblies and baptized them "in the name of Jesus Christ". Of course, when he says Jesus Christ, he means himself: Jesus Christ Spaceman, biological son of Captain Yahweh of the Federation Starship Celestial 3.

I would imagine your circle of assemblies would have to address this issue. They'd have to make sure that those baptized were NOT being baptized in the name of our spaceman Jesus, but in the name of the biblical Jesus. Perhaps, "You are baptized in the name of the biblical Jesus Christ." Then some of the spaceman's followers would say, "Peter said to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. Full stop. Are you saying that Peter was wrong?"

In short, like the heretics before him, Spaceman Jesus would take good old terminology and fill it full of his nonsense. (And if you think Spaceman Jesus would be stranger than any historical heretics, then I would recommend reading about the 2nd-century Gnostics. Those guys were supremely weird. Ol' Spaceman Jesus would be kind of tame compared to some of them. Or consider the numbskull(s) implied in I Corinthians 12:3 who thought that the Holy Spirit inspired them to curse Jesus. My goodness.)
Bill Maher asked, "So how do you convince people of the truth?"
Father Reginald Foster answered, "You don't. Forget it. You just have to... You just have to live and die with their stupid ideas. I'm sorry. What are you going to do?"
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:55 pm

How did we go from a 24 hour day to Trinitarian baptism to Mt Everest and NT Wright. Gotta love the Forum. :lol: :lol:

But I like the Fonz!!
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:02 pm

maintenanceman wrote:How did we go from a 24 hour day to Trinitarian baptism to Mt Everest and NT Wright. Gotta love the Forum. :lol: :lol:

But I like the Fonz!!


Me thinks that some of my Holy Fool theology and P-Zombie philosophy, is rubbing off on you :!: :lol:
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:04 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
maintenanceman wrote:How did we go from a 24 hour day to Trinitarian baptism to Mt Everest and NT Wright. Gotta love the Forum. :lol: :lol:

But I like the Fonz!!


Me thinks that some of my Holy Fool theology and P-Zombie philosophy, is rubbing off on you :!: :lol:


Amen Brother :lol:
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby maintenanceman » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:33 am

davo wrote:




Wright said: "The death and resurrection of Jesus constitutes Abrahams family as a world wide forgiven family."

Good stuff :!: :D
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Geoffrey » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:03 am

[email protected] wrote:Also you make a point that mankind's violence was the primary concern. Certainly it was a concern and perhaps the primary concern, but you might be going too far with your conclusion that the ark was created to save mankind from self-destruction through violence. All certainly agree that the nature of the sin warranted radical measures. However, the first sin listed, perhaps by way of importance, is the marrying of any they chose. The emphasis here is that God was not joining husband and wife together, but instead man himself. One might read a sexually related sin into this crime. I could imagine sins in this department that would likewise provoke God to have to clean the slate. Perhaps both sins provoked God to his radical decision.


I don't doubt that sexual sins also contributed. I further suspect that these sexual sins resulted in no or far fewer births, which would also lead mankind towards extinction: Hyper-violence and non-procreative sexuality would drive mankind towards the brink of non-existence. The Flood, then, was God's means of saving mankind from itself.
Bill Maher asked, "So how do you convince people of the truth?"
Father Reginald Foster answered, "You don't. Forget it. You just have to... You just have to live and die with their stupid ideas. I'm sorry. What are you going to do?"
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby [email protected] » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:54 pm

I don't doubt that sexual sins also contributed. I further suspect that these sexual sins resulted in no or far fewer births, which would also lead mankind towards extinction: Hyper-violence and non-procreative sexuality would drive mankind towards the brink of non-existence. The Flood, then, was God's means of saving mankind from itself.

Possible, but without more Biblical data that may conclude more than is possible with the evidence given. Seems like you are wrestling to vindicate God's motives in the flood by your conclusion. However, I am convinced that God is still both righteous and loving in the flood even if humanity was not on an explicit course for extinction.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Geoffrey » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:29 pm

[email protected] wrote:Seems like you are wrestling to vindicate God's motives in the flood by your conclusion. However, I am convinced that God is still both righteous and loving in the flood even if humanity was not on an explicit course for extinction.


What actually led me to the conclusion that pre-Flood mankind was on a path to extinction (which, I admit, is only a theory of mine that is quite possibly incorrect) was the following line of thought: "Wow. Look at some of the unspeakable wickedness in history. Consider the intricate and systematized tortures and massacres of people in the 20th century, yet God did not wipe us all out for that. Pre-Flood mankind, to merit getting wiped-out, must have been even worse than any of the monsters that we read about in history. Think of the worst, most grotesque crimes of the Soviets, or of the Nazis, or of serial killers, or etc. These crimes must pale compared to those committed by pre-Flood mankind. Pre-Flood mankind must have been so unrelentingly and thoroughly wicked that we literally can't even conceive of the depths of sin and depravity that they reached."

And, of course, if people are bad enough, more people will be murdered than are born, resulting in eventual human extinction. It's more a math/probability thing than anything else.
Bill Maher asked, "So how do you convince people of the truth?"
Father Reginald Foster answered, "You don't. Forget it. You just have to... You just have to live and die with their stupid ideas. I'm sorry. What are you going to do?"
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby [email protected] » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:32 am

to merit getting wiped-out, must have been even worse than any of the monsters that we read about in history.

That statement is not necessarily true. Could be, but not necessarily.

God promised to never flood the world again, but mankind could not keep a promise to never be as bad again. The history of redemption and grace shows a progression and stages. God purposefully employed methods to demonstrate their failure when compared with the cross. For example the flood and the Old Covenant did not change one heart, but the New Covenant did. So now we have a more thorough understanding of the depth of our sin problem and better yet a better understanding of the God's grace at the cross.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Geoffrey » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:28 pm

[email protected] wrote:
to merit getting wiped-out, must have been even worse than any of the monsters that we read about in history.

That statement is not necessarily true. Could be, but not necessarily.


I agree.

I think it is the most natural reading of the Flood account, but it is not the only possible one. Perhaps God sent the Flood against people who were less wicked than others, and if so He clearly had His reasons. I think this is unlikely, though. When I first read the book of Genesis at age 10, it seemed to me that the text was presenting a pre-Flood mankind far more wicked than at any other time or place in history.

I find it interesting that only once in the 40,000+ year history of mankind has God virtually destroyed all of mankind. That makes me think that era was unique. I suspect that if any man with even a modicum of decency were to travel back in time and walk unseen amongst mankind in the years immediately before the Flood, he would wish nothing more than for them to be eradicated--for goodness' and mercy's sake. While it is conceivable to imagine loving mothers trying vainly to hold their crying babies up above the rising waters of the Flood, I think the natural reading of the story would be one of vile, drowning females who aborted half of their offspring and sacrificed the other half on pagan altars.
Bill Maher asked, "So how do you convince people of the truth?"
Father Reginald Foster answered, "You don't. Forget it. You just have to... You just have to live and die with their stupid ideas. I'm sorry. What are you going to do?"
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Eusebius » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:43 pm

[email protected] wrote:
to merit getting wiped-out, must have been even worse than any of the monsters that we read about in history.

That statement is not necessarily true. Could be, but not necessarily.

God promised to never flood the world again, but mankind could not keep a promise to never be as bad again. The history of redemption and grace shows a progression and stages. God purposefully employed methods to demonstrate their failure when compared with the cross. For example the flood and the Old Covenant did not change one heart, but the New Covenant did. So now we have a more thorough understanding of the depth of our sin problem and better yet a better understanding of the God's grace at the cross.



Very nicely stated jeff.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:36 pm

Here is a recent model of Noah's ark built exactly according to the specifications given in Genesis.
I regret that the picture is cut off at the right-hand end, but when you compare the size shown with the people standing around it, you can get an idea of the immensity of the ark. Obviously it could hold quite a few animals. It probably held the original genus of each species. For example, I'm sure that all dogs from the Chihuahua to the St. Bernard, all descended from a single pair of dogs that contained all the genetic material necessary to produce the many variations of the species.

Image
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Eaglesway » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:34 am

Very cool. Could you provide the link to the site?
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Geoffrey » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:55 am

That ark is incredible.
Bill Maher asked, "So how do you convince people of the truth?"
Father Reginald Foster answered, "You don't. Forget it. You just have to... You just have to live and die with their stupid ideas. I'm sorry. What are you going to do?"
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:44 pm

Eaglesway, I cannot find the site with that particular photo. However, I found a site concerning it with a video, that you might enjoy:

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/07/06/noah-s-ark-built-to-biblical-specifications-opens-in-kentucky/21425182/

Hmmm... I tried clicking on my own link, and instead of being able to access the video at the site, it now lets me access a gallery of 16 photos.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:10 pm

Ahhh... I think I found the site. And it's not just a picture. Click on it and you'll see a video.

http://abc13.com/society/massive-full-scale-version-of-noahs-ark-comes-to-life-/1416838/
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Eusebius » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:11 pm

[email protected] wrote:so what are you fellas actually saying?

... that Jesus is not a person or that he is not God?
... or that the Holy Spirit is not a distinct person or that he is not God?
... or both?

I know A. E. Knoch led a movement believing that the Holy Spirit was not a distinct person.


Hi Jeff, I read your opening statement and liked a lot of it. Of course I disagree on some points. But being brothers in Christ, we are allowed to and still be friends, right?

There is no scriptural proof which says Jesus eternally existed as God. Jesus said Himself several times that He has a God in the gospels and Revelation, so He can't be that God and so He can't be "God," in the highest sense of the word i.e. the God who fills heaven and earth. He is allowed to carry the title "God" since He is the subjector of the universe. But God, the supreme subjector will subject all to Christ. He is the perfect image of His God and so is Divine and human at the same time.

The evangel is that God sent His Son into the world to save sinners. It is not about Him sending Himself. God didn't sacrifice Himself. He sacrificed His only begotten Son. That's the evangel. Trinitarianism covers up the evangel.

The holy spirit is God's spirit.

The spirit of truth is not a person any more than "a spirit of slavery" is a person or a "spirit of sonship" is a person. Spirit of truth is truth's spirit or what one could say is truth's invisible power.

At least that's what I think.

Peace
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Eusebius » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:13 pm

Paidion wrote:Here is a recent model of Noah's ark built exactly according to the specifications given in Genesis.
I regret that the picture is cut off at the right-hand end, but when you compare the size shown with the people standing around it, you can get an idea of the immensity of the ark. Obviously it could hold quite a few animals. It probably held the original genus of each species. For example, I'm sure that all dogs from the Chihuahua to the St. Bernard, all descended from a single pair of dogs that contained all the genetic material necessary to produce the many variations of the species.

Image


I believe the same Paidion. Someday I hope to visit that ark. Imagine in Noah's day how people must have been amazed at the enormity of Noah's ark!
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