Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Faith

Arguments/positions in defense of Evangelical Universalism.

Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Eaglesway » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:50 am

I have always felt it spurious to say Jesus didnt mean what He said when He says, "My Father is greater than I", or "All authority on heaven and earth is given me by My Father".

Why didnt He in any place follow any of His statements with an asterix and a long theological presentation on what He really didnt mean and what He only means for now and what it will really mean later?

Especially since only believing what He said as He said it is grounds for eternity in hell or at least excommunication and classification as a heretic and anathema from the body of Christ.

Why make something upon which the salvation of a soul depends so complex that it cannot be read in the Bible but must be read in the hundreds of years and hundreds of pages of convoluted reasonings and invented words that clergymen fought over for centuries.

I personally believe Jesus is God very God like a piece of dough torn from a lump of dough is "bread very bread". Jesus is "the bite sized piece" of the Father. He is the Son, the unique, only begotten God. As such, He is the second Adam- declared to be the Son of God with power by the resurrection of the dead....

He is a new class of man, a new creation, the chief cornerstone of a habitation of God in the Spirit, being built of living stones; He is the Head of the body; He is the Root of the Olive tree, the True Vine.

But all that one needs to know is that the Almighty Invisible Creator Fathered a Son. Planted His seed in the womb of the earth, thereby making Him one with the earth and one with the Creator.

"God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself". God was "in Christ". That's what made Him "Christ"- the anointed one, Messiah. Christ came "out of God" and "down from heaven" - a Son,

"This is My beloved Son, Listen to Him"

Jesus is not(imo) the modalist Son. He is beloved. A child of a Father, a young man beloved of His mother. Even as my son came up as another and I love him, so also the Father loves His son who is begotten of Him, beloved of Him, beheld by Him as precious. A gift of love to the earth and a sacrifice of pain.

"My God My God why have you forsaken me".

How did God forsake Himself. Was Jesus for a moment no longer God? When did He become God?

For a little while lower than the angels, but crowned with glory and honor!

I personally think the whole dilemma is a matter of perspective, and the deficiency in our understanding of heaven, and what exists in the highest heaven.

What if the highest heaven exists in a state of perfection completely outside of time? What if the "half hour of silence in heaven" is the 33 years that the "word" of God, the "Logos" was walking through "the valley of the shadow of death". It was silent because He was not there for that time.

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

Made for a little while lower than the angels......

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Ph 2


....crowned with glory and honor

And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. rv 21:23

God is the light eminating from the Lamp, "No man has seen God at any time but the son of man He has revealed Him"(made Him visible, manifest)

The lines we draw are insufficient because our elevation is not sufficient to see beyond the horizon that God has made- the veil of the heavens...

"Brethren we know not yet what we shall be but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is."

Transformed into His image, new creatures, begotten again not by the will of man or the will of the flesh but of God. Begotten from above by an incorruptible seed unto a fervent love of the brethren.

"That you may be one even as I and the Father are one......

If Jesus was on the earth for that half hour, and the sanctuary of heaven existed before and after(the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world....Father glorify me with the glory I had with thee before the world was), but....

"He who descended is also He who ascended that He might fill all things"(Eph 4) and now it is filling up because He ascended with a stream of captves in His train and that stream is still continually pouring through the Portal He opened....

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"

The serpent on the stick healing the snake bite of sin and death, and all that is needed is a revelation of Christ crucified. That heals the wound. Period.

Not understanding the Godhead and naming it Trinity or Bi-nity of Modal or Whateverrrr LOL.

Isaac on the altar. Abraham the friend of God....he understood it. The pain. The sacrifice. He would gladly have offered himself in Isaac's place. And Isaac was not Abraham, he was Abraham's son. That's what made Abraham the friend of God.It was something they shared.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:00 pm

Eaglesway wrote:I personally believe Jesus is God very God like a piece of dough torn from a lump of dough is "bread very bread". Jesus is "the bite sized piece" of the Father. He is the Son, the unique, only begotten God.


If I understand you correctly, this is precisely my belief. I understand your use of the word "God" as referring to the divine essence and is not identifying the Person of the Son with that of the Father.

"The only begotten God" (John 1:18, Papyrus 66 and Papyrus 75, the oldest manuscripts of John 1:18 in existence)

Your belief that, "Jesus is God very God like a piece of dough torn from a lump of dough is "bread very bread," reminds me of Justin Martyr's illustration of the begetting of the Son (except Justin would probably insist that the original lump of dough is not diminished in volume by tearing the piece from it).

Justin wrote:“I shall give you another testimony, my friends,” said I, “from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning,[who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by
an act of will, ... just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled.

Dialogue With Trypho, chapter 61
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Eaglesway » Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:20 pm

I would agree that the divine essence is not diminished by taking a piece from it, since God creates, and I do not believe anything He creates diminishes Him. I think some of the logic(including mine:)) applied to such questions is somewhat faulty in that we cannot see from His perspective, so our laws and rules are like children playing, making up rules as they go along. "You can't tag me, am on base" "I call invisible, no one can see me", etc. It works well within a construct everyone agrees to support, but as soon as some little one says, "Why not, God is God, He can do what He wants", the paradigms fail, the constructs crash to the ground, the King's New Clothes disappear. :lol:

"WHo has known the mind of the Lord? And who has been His counselor?"

The glory of God is the divine exponential multiplication of grace. "By faith we know that the worlds were created by the word of God". Something from nothing, Light shining out of darkness, Union and harmony arising out of chaos.

"Great grace was upon them all, and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied, and the Lord added daily to their number those apponited to salvation, and no one among them had any need, and they were all as one soul."

God is good.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:58 am

davo wrote:
LLC wrote:Can anyone truly and accurately speak for another?

Of course they can… God’s prophets did it all the time. Jesus, prophet par excellence did this all the time… “I only speak what I hear the Father say” etc. In the British Commonwealth the respective ‘Governors’ General’ in their official role speak and act ON BEHALF OF the Crown… when they speak/act the Queen speaks/acts, i.e., they carry Her authority and power.


So what makes Jesus any different from the prophets or the people who have spoken for God in the past? I believe this is where all the confusion comes into play because they were all men speaking for God. It is like a bunch of children quibbling over what their mom or dad has said, until the parent actually walks in and straightens it all out. To me, Jesus was God speaking for Himself.

Paidion, Eaglesway, maybe it's just me and I am not understanding your views correctly. To me, the Bible is about the relationship between God and man only. However, what I get from your viewpoints as well as the Trinity is that an only begotten Son has been introduced. It seems the relationship is now between God and Jesus. What happened to the relationship between God and man?
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:15 pm

Eaglesway, You mentioned Matthew 27:46 in which Jesus says "My God ,My God , why have you forsaken Me?"

I do not interpret this verse as Jesus feeling forsaken by God and calling out to Him. Jesus knew what His mission was and knew what was going to happen in the end. He even tells the thief that he would be with Him in paradise. Why would he think God had forsaken Him? If you read the verse that follows, the people say Jesus was calling Elijah. From what I understand, Elijah was an Israelite. I believe that Jesus(God) was actually calling out to the people of Israel here, for they were the ones that had forsaken Him. Earlier, Jesus says that He longed to gather His children as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but they were unwilling. Had the people of Israel chosen Jesus instead of Barabbas, He would not have been upon the cross.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby davo » Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:45 pm

LLC wrote:So what makes Jesus any different from the prophets or the people who have spoken for God in the past?

Huge difference LLC… Jesus was God’s FINAL REDEMPTIVE WORD… the all encapsulating Alpha & Omega, the First & Last, the Beginning & End, His Yes & Amen (Rev 1:8; 22:13 2Cor 1:20) the one through whom ALL prophetic WORD found fullness and fulfilment, as per…
Lk 24: 44-45 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.


LLC wrote:Eaglesway, You mentioned Matthew 27:46 in which Jesus says "My God ,My God , why have you forsaken Me?"

I do not interpret this verse as Jesus feeling forsaken by God and calling out to Him. Jesus knew what His mission was and knew what was going to happen in the end.

I’m inclined to think Jesus was feeling the full anguish of abandonment… that would be quite realistic IMO. However, the Peshitta (Aramaic) of this passage does give a different reading somewhat more in line with your thoughts:
My God, My God, for this I was spared” i.e., *this was my destiny*.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby maintenanceman » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:58 pm

Not to scratch the scab off an old wound but if we do consider fulfilled eschatology, we can realize that Christ did what He was meant to do and sin is atoned for and death is defeated!

Is Christ's death and resurrection actual or potential?

Seems to me so many on this forum still are questioning Christ's redemptive sacrifice, as if for some reason it is incomplete or not sufficient. Why are we questioning this?

Beck says of 'Wright'...

Theologically, the translational differences go to the issue of the actual versus potential nature of forgiveness. In Martin Luther's rendering--faith in Jesus--forgiveness is potential. Forgiveness is contingent upon the act of faith. You need to believe and then, once you've done that, you are forgiven. By contrast, the New Perspective rendering--faith of Jesus--focuses upon the faithfulness of Jesus in creating a new reality. Because of the work of Christ on the cross the wall of hostility and accusation between God and humanity was finally and decisively broken down. Forgiveness becomes our new reality. A new world has been created. Everyone has already been forgiven in Christ. The call is to recognize this reality and live into it. To trust (have "faith in") what the faithfulness of Jesus has accomplished for us "while we were yet sinners."

This is truly good news... Yet so many will still doubt and try to slander the Christ.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby davo » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:13 pm

maintenanceman wrote:Not to scratch the scab off an old wound but if we do consider fulfilled eschatology, we can realize that Christ did what He was meant to do and sin is atoned for and death is defeated!

Is Christ's death and resurrection actual or potential?

Seems to me so many on this forum still are questioning Christ's redemptive sacrifice, as if for some reason it is incomplete or not sufficient. Why are we questioning this?

Beck says of 'Wright'...

Theologically, the translational differences go to the issue of the actual versus potential nature of forgiveness. In Martin Luther's rendering--faith in Jesus--forgiveness is potential. Forgiveness is contingent upon the act of faith. You need to believe and then, once you've done that, you are forgiven. By contrast, the New Perspective rendering--faith of Jesus--focuses upon the faithfulness of Jesus in creating a new reality. Because of the work of Christ on the cross the wall of hostility and accusation between God and humanity was finally and decisively broken down. Forgiveness becomes our new reality. A new world has been created. Everyone has already been forgiven in Christ. The call is to recognize this reality and live into it. To trust (have "faith in") what the faithfulness of Jesus has accomplished for us "while we were yet sinners."

This is truly good news... Yet so many will still doubt and try to slander the Christ.

Image

    Especially… “The call is to recognize this reality and live into it.”
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:54 pm

MM wrote:Seems to me so many on this forum still are questioning Christ's redemptive sacrifice, as if for some reason it is incomplete or not sufficient. Why are we questioning this?


MANY are questioning this? I don't know of ANY who are questioning it. Who, specifically?
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:05 pm

LLC wrote:Paidion, Eaglesway, maybe it's just me and I am not understanding your views correctly. To me, the Bible is about the relationship between God and man only. However, what I get from your viewpoints as well as the Trinity is that an only begotten Son has been introduced. It seems the relationship is now between God and Jesus. What happened to the relationship between God and man?


Huh? Did something happen to it?

The Father and the Son have a perfect relationship and unity. And that same unity between Them and us is precisely that for which Jesus prayed:

I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. (John 17: 20, 21)
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby maintenanceman » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:36 pm

Paidion wrote:
MM wrote:Seems to me so many on this forum still are questioning Christ's redemptive sacrifice, as if for some reason it is incomplete or not sufficient. Why are we questioning this?


MANY are questioning this? I don't know of ANY who are questioning it. Who, specifically?


Do you believe EVERYONE has been forgiven through Christ? :D
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Eaglesway » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:32 pm

I believe everyone has been forgiven, but they cannot receive that forgiveness until they see Christ crucified. The forgiveness is there for them, in YHWH's heart. Eventually everyone will be in YHWH's heart. Jesus is the Door, just as He says.

As far as YHWH and man, Jesus is the bridge between God and man regardless of ones beliefs about the Trinity, etc.

I like the old, "personal relationship" thing. If you know Jesus you kno God and are known by God. The Lord knows those who are His. If you THINK you know Jesus but have no practicaal expression of love and charity in your heart- you may get a surprise in the light of the Day, but the resolution of that will be a true revelation of who He is, and who we ought to be in Him, that will lead to every knee bowed, and every tongue confessing the glory of His righteous loving Lordship over all.

The idea that rebellion and sin are not an impediment to the reception of grace is an anti scriptural fairy tale. Adversaries remain, and they will face kolassis, and when the relent they will experience remission and reconciliation.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:02 am

Yes Davo , I agree. There is a huge difference between Jesus and all others. As I mentioned, the difference is that Jesus was the one and only God speaking for Himself. For it is only the Father that has the final word, just as in my illustration of the quibbling children. You also brought up Luke 24:44-45. This is one of the reasons I believe Jesus to be the one true God. The entire Old Testament tells us all about the one and only God, and in the New Testament He comes to earth in the form of a man.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:15 am

Yes Davo , I agree. There is a huge difference between Jesus and all others. As I mentioned, the difference is that Jesus was the one and only God speaking for Himself. For it is only the Father that has the final word, just as in my illustration of the quibbling children. You also brought up Luke 24:44-45. This is one of the reasons I believe Jesus to be the one true God. The entire Old Testament tells us all about the one and only God, and in the New Testament He comes to earth in the form of a man. As to your last thought on Jesus feeling the pain of abandonment, the Old Testament also speaks of this many times when the people of Israel go off and worship other gods. It is as if your own child tells you he doesn't love you after all that you have gone through in raising him and providing for him, This is a stab to the very heart.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Eaglesway » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:16 am

LLC wrote:Eaglesway, You mentioned Matthew 27:46 in which Jesus says "My God ,My God , why have you forsaken Me?"

I do not interpret this verse as Jesus feeling forsaken by God and calling out to Him. Jesus knew what His mission was and knew what was going to happen in the end. He even tells the thief that he would be with Him in paradise. Why would he think God had forsaken Him? If you read the verse that follows, the people say Jesus was calling Elijah. From what I understand, Elijah was an Israelite. I believe that Jesus(God) was actually calling out to the people of Israel here, for they were the ones that had forsaken Him. Earlier, Jesus says that He longed to gather His children as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but they were unwilling. Had the people of Israel chosen Jesus instead of Barabbas, He would not have been upon the cross.


I defintely believ Jesus is the only begotten Son, and that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto HIMSELF. As it is written In Eph 1 and Col 1 the Father is doing that through the blood of His cross.

I have no axe to grind against anyones view of the Godhead except to discuss it- and as long as noone says "If you dont believe what I believe you cannot know Jesus Christ or His Father. I have seen the evil of that from several different directions. I also have no theory I would advance about exactly what happened in the spiritual realm at the cross.

I do however find it to be an extremely dubious idea that Jesus was using the name of God as an epithet as He appealed to the people for forsaking Him. He would have said, "My people, my people, why have you forsaken me".... but He wouldnt have said that either because He did not trust Himself to man because He knew what was in man.

Whatever happened to Jesus at he cross, experientially- I am certain He addressed God because He was speaking to God, even as He addressed the Father in prayer,

So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42I knew that You always hear Me, but I say this for the benefit of the people standing here, so they may believe that You sent Me."

Jesus is more than any prophet. He is the only begotten Son of God, the bread of life coming down from heaven....sent by the Father, empowered by the Holy Spirit. How that goes together in one persons mind or another is fine with me until it becomes some religionist creed. I am certainly not attempting to create a new creed lol, but I do enjoy discussing it, because religion is a treacherous schoolmaster, and I love to ask the questions and posit the alternatives for the sake the soteriologists who are still repeating declarations form the apostate councils of the early Roman church(if ya wanna call it that ) and for the sake of those who have been intimidated into not thinking and asking questions because they have been and are being threatened for doing so. :o)
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:13 am

Eaglesway, I do agree that to know Jesus is to know God, because for me there is no other. I also agree that it is good to ask questions and discuss. You mentioned your thoughts on when Jesus says "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" However, Jesus neither says "Father, why have you forsaken me?", nor does He mention the name Yahweh. According to the next verse, He was addressing Elijah. Is Elijah God?
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:06 am

Paidion wrote:
LLC wrote:Paidion, Eaglesway, maybe it's just me and I am not understanding your views correctly. To me, the Bible is about the relationship between God and man only. However, what I get from your viewpoints as well as the Trinity is that an only begotten Son has been introduced. It seems the relationship is now between God and Jesus. What happened to the relationship between God and man?


Huh? Did something happen to it?

The Father and the Son have a perfect relationship and unity. And that same unity between Them and us is precisely that for which Jesus prayed:

I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. (John 17: 20, 21)


Paidion, if I am reading you correctly, from what you are saying here as well as from what I understand others to be saying, we are to look upon the relationship between God and Jesus and imitate this or that the two together draw us into their loving circle. For me, this does not compute. It is as if one should look from the outside upon the love between a parent and child and try to relate. There is a special bond that exists between a parent and child due to the fact that the child is a very part of that parent. One cannot know of this bond unless you are that child or that parent. I believe God is our Father. We are each a very part of Him, as Eaglesway mentioned " a piece of dough torn from the very dough".
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby davo » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:42 am

LLC wrote:As I mentioned, the difference is that Jesus was the one and only God speaking for Himself.

That’s all fine to say but the sole reason you haven’t quoted a verse that says this is that none exist… quite the contrary:
Jn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

Oneness of unity and purpose does NOT equate to what you are stating.

LLC wrote:The entire Old Testament tells us all about the one and only God, and in the New Testament He comes to earth in the form of a man.

Really?? Explain “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.” who constitutes the “Son” and who constitutes the “I am”?

LLC wrote:As to your last thought on Jesus feeling the pain of abandonment, the Old Testament…

I go with the standard reading and understanding of *abandonment* as Jesus’ words reflect the LXX.

LLC wrote:However, Jesus neither says "Father, why have you forsaken me?", nor does He mention the name Yahweh. According to the next verse, He was addressing Elijah. Is Elijah God?

Most acknowledge, in their respective contexts, that “Father” is interchangeable with “God”. Nor was “Yahweh” mentioned because it was considered too sacred to pronounce. And as for “Elijah”… that’s what some hearing thought; they were simply wrong!
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Eaglesway » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:07 am

LLC wrote:Eaglesway, I do agree that to know Jesus is to know God, because for me there is no other. I also agree that it is good to ask questions and discuss. You mentioned your thoughts on when Jesus says "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" However, Jesus neither says "Father, why have you forsaken me?", nor does He mention the name Yahweh. According to the next verse, He was addressing Elijah. Is Elijah God?


El = God

2241 ēlí – the transliteration of the Hebrew noun ̓Ēl ("God") with the suffix (ī) which means "my"; Eli ("my God").

Why would Jesus pray to Elijah? In the very next verse it is translated by the narrator as "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me".

One of the problems I have with the modalist view is that Jesus is always talking to Himself and his Self is always talking to him in all these critical emotional situations, like Davo pointed out.

What kind of sense can a person make of the Garden of Gethsemane if there is no distinction of personality/personhood between the Father and the Son?

But as I said before, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'd rather not debate it any further, so, having said all that want to say about it, "Peace, out, y'all."
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:42 am

Davo, Jesus says this in John 8:58 "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
Matthew 4:4 "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
Mark 13:31 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but MY words will by no means pass away."
When Jesus speaks, He says, I say to you, not "Thus sayeth the Lord", or "The Father says", or "We say". If the statement "I and the Father are one." was meant to convey a unity of persons rather than one and the same person, I think that there would be a lot more verses using "we" ,"us", "them" or "they".
According to the Bible, a voice came from heaven and said "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well pleased." I have to wonder about this. If God were able to speak from heaven in a voice that everyone standing around are able to hear, then I suppose there would not be a need for anyone else to speak for Him.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby davo » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:12 am

LLC… how does your position massage away this text? Which or whose God and Father is involved here given your position gives "God" status ALONE to Jesus himself?
Jn 20:17b …‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:35 pm

Jn 20:17b …‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”


Yes, that sentence occured to me also, Davo.

Jesus has a God. Is Jesus' God another divine Person? Or is Jesus his own God? Was Jesus about to ascend to Himself?
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby davo » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:14 pm

Paidion wrote:
Jn 20:17b …‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”


Yes, that sentence occured to me also, Davo.

Jesus has a God. Is Jesus' God another divine Person? Or is Jesus his own God? Was Jesus about to ascend to Himself?

Indeed… and I can’t see how LLC’s view logically resonates when the veracity of texts are brought into question and seemingly dismissed by the likes of “I have to wonder about this.” Is it reasonable to advocate for something (in part) akin to Sabellianism simply by disparaging verses that don’t gel with one’s position?

LLC wrote:Davo, Jesus says this in John 8:58 "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

The “I am” of Jn 8:58 is a simple phrase of self-identification as used in this text <ἐγὼ εἰμί> egō eimi is NOT a name, nor is its natural use here meant to convey historical or actual existence. Self-identification is its sole function, as can also be seen here…
Jn 9:9 Some said, “This is he.” Others said, “He is like him.” He said, “I am he.

I might also point out an important note… the final “he” is added for our English reading and is NOT in the Greek text.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:31 am

Davo, from what I understand, I AM, is the name of the one and only God. Exodus 3:14 says this: "And God said to Moses " I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel,' I AM has sent me to you.'"
Isaiah 45:6 " I am the Lord and there is no other."
True, I AM is not a name but when Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I AM.", the Jewish people knew exactly what Jesus was saying. He was basically stating that He is the one and only God who exists; that He is existence itself and He is the Supreme Being by which everything else exists.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby davo » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:52 am

LLC wrote:Davo, from what I understand, I AM, is the name of the one and only God. Exodus 3:14 says this: "And God said to Moses " I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel,' I AM has sent me to you.'"

There is NO argument on this… BUT that’s NOT Jesus’ point nor CLAIM here in Jn 8:58!

LLC wrote:Isaiah 45:6 " I am the Lord and there is no other."

That in itself should make it CLEAR that Yahweh ALONE is God!

LLC wrote:True, I AM is not a name but when Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I AM.", the Jewish people knew exactly what Jesus was saying.

True…

LLC wrote:He was basically stating that He is the one and only God who exists; that He is existence itself and He is the Supreme Being by which everything else exists.

False… Jesus was indicating that HE “Jesus” (Joshua = deliverer/saviour) was Israel’s long promised Messiah… the great prophet to come; greater than Abraham and all those following him (vs. 53).

IF Jesus was claiming the identity of God-ship, and he wasn’t, he would have said… “I AM THE GOD” <Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ θεὸς> Egō eimi O Theos – he didn’t!

Now before you jump to your next evasion PLEASE go back and answer (as I have answered your points) the following which thus far you have not…

davo wrote:LLC… how does your position massage away this text? Which or whose God and Father is involved here given your position gives "God" status ALONE to Jesus himself?
Jn 20:17b …‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”


davo wrote:
LLC wrote:Davo, Jesus says this in John 8:58 "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

The “I am” of Jn 8:58 is a simple phrase of self-identification as used in this text <ἐγὼ εἰμί> egō eimi is NOT a name, nor is its natural use here meant to convey historical or actual existence. Self-identification is its sole function, as can also be seen here…
Jn 9:9 Some said, “This is he.” Others said, “He is like him.” He said, “I am he.

I might also point out an important note… the final “he” is added for our English reading and is NOT in the Greek text.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Gabe Grinstead » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:19 am

Do you think God or Jesus really cares whether you split hairs over this? If these guys are great as we think they are (Jesus and God) then I have no doubt that they could not care any less about how we regard them. A supremely powerful being who knows he is powerful doesn't need someone to acknowledge said power. That isn't to say that I think the debate is wrong, but I don't think anyone needs to justify how they think of Jesus, whether he is God, a lesser God or just a man.

This is why I abhor the idea we were created to glorify God. As if he needed us to increase his glory? That is silly non-sense. If God created us, it is because He is love and love wants to share, not because he wants to extract glory and praise from us. How vain...
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:12 pm

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Since I am a Christian Inclusivist (Positions for the Lost), I'm less concerned about folks splitting hairs here - on Trinity/Non-trinity issues. But I did find an interesting article today, in the Protestant site Patheos:

Is Trinity “Useless”? Hear this Theologian Out

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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby davo » Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:40 pm

Gabe Grinstead wrote:Do you think God or Jesus really cares whether you split hairs over this? If these guys are great as we think they are (Jesus and God) then I have no doubt that they could not care any less about how we regard them. A supremely powerful being who knows he is powerful doesn't need someone to acknowledge said power. That isn't to say that I think the debate is wrong, but I don't think anyone needs to justify how they think of Jesus, whether he is God, a lesser God or just a man.

This is why I abhor the idea we were created to glorify God. As if he needed us to increase his glory? That is silly non-sense. If God created us, it is because He is love and love wants to share, not because he wants to extract glory and praise from us. How vain...

I couldn't agree more Gabe.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:28 am

Davo, From what I understand when speaking of the Lord, the people of Israel are referring to God, as in Genesis 24:3 "and I will make you swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and the God of earth", or Psalm 39:7 ""And now Lord, what do I wait for? My hope is in You.", and Psalm 40:5"Many O Lord my God, are your wonderful works."
Luke 1:76 says this in reference to the coming of Jesus, "and you child(John the Baptist) will be called the prophet of the Highest; for you will go before the Lord to prepare His ways."
As for Jesus saying I AM, it is understood that I AM is THE GOD.
Believe it or not, I do agree that Jesus is the Son, but as I am not a very fast typist, I must run, so I will get back with you a little later. ;) :o
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Eaglesway » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:17 am

If "P" is false I will be sad. I do not wish to be sad therefore "P" is true. If you say "P" is false, I will get mad, because I don't want to be sad, therefore, you must die, or at the very least be exiled, Cuz you made me mad when you made me sad and thats bad. :lol:
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby DaveB » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:18 am

I'm not glad that you're a sad lad; I'm a grad of the sad lad cad-re; so is Chad, I would maintain. :D
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:25 pm

LLC wrote:As for Jesus saying I AM, it is understood that I AM is THE GOD.


Yes, it is understood by those who wish to identify Jesus as the one-and-only Almighty God . But it was not understood thus by the Christians of the first two centuries. Nor was it understood by Jesus Himself, who addressed the Father in prayer as "the only true God" (John 17:3)

The words for "I am" in the New Testament are "ἐγω εἰμι" (egō ēmē). Some pronounce it egō āmē". The meaning is "I, I am" with an emphasis on the first "I".

There are 47 occurrences of the expression in the New Testament. Here are just 10 of them. Ask yourself if Jesus, or the person using the expression was declaring Himself to be the "Great I AM."

Matthew 14:27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take heart; ἐγω εἰμι (it is I) Do not be afraid.”
Luke 1:19 And the angel answered him, “ἐγω εἰμι (I am) Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God...
Luke 22:70 So they all said, “Are you the Son of God, then?” And he said to them, “You say that ἐγω εἰμι (I am).”
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “ἐγω εἰμι (I am) the bread of life..."
John 10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, ἐγω εἰμι (I am) the door of the sheep.
John 10:11 ἐγω εἰμι (I am) the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Acts 10:21 And Peter went down to the men and said, “ἐγω εἰμι (I am) the one you are looking for.
Acts 18:10 ...for ἐγω εἰμι (I am) with you ...
Acts 22:3 “ἐγω εἰμι (I am) a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia...
Acts 26:15 And I said, ‘Who are you, Sir?’ And the Lord said, ‘ἐγω εἰμι (I am) Jesus whom you are persecuting.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:36 am

Davo, for me, Jesus was both the Father and the Son, the Son indicating that He was in human form. This is like saying water in liquid form is water, whereas water in frozen form is ice, and in gaseous form it is steam. The way I see it, God Himself is the only one capable of being a perfectly perfect true man. All the rest of us err and fall short. Some of the reasons why I believe that God came to earth are as follows:
1) As any good Father would do, to raise His sons(man) up properly and show us the way we should go. Although we can never be the perfectly perfect Son(man) that Jesus the Father was, I don't really think He expects us to. He was showing us how to be righteous. There is a difference. Righteousness includes forgiveness and love. This we can do and is what I believe makes us perfect in God's eyes.

2) To rebuild the Kingdom of God on earth, teaching us to be princes and rulers so that the promise He made in the beginning may be fulfilled. Genesis 1:27-28 ""So God created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it, have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves on the earth." Also Mark 5:5 "The meek shall inherit the earth."

3) No matter how hard we try, we can never fully explain God. I think Jesus was God saying "This is Me, God, plain and simple. Follow Me." Now everyone from the greatest to the least of us are able to comprehend God and what it is that He expects from us.

4)Throughout history, men have made up and believed in all sorts of imaginary gods in the heavens above. There is only one that has ever showed up in person to prove that He exists and that what the prophets and the Psalms have said about Him is true.

Paidion, I still think Jesus was saying He is I AM as in the one and only God. Genesis 26:24 says this:" I am the God of your father Abraham."
Genesis 17:1 "The Lord appeared to Abram and said to him " I am Almighty God, walk before Me and be blameless."
Exodus 3:15 " Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This (I AM) is My name forever."
I would say that God was Abraham's Father before Abraham was the father of many nations.
After Jesus made the statement, the Jews were going to stone Him for blasphemy. A few chapters later(John 10:33) they say "You, being a Man, make Yourself God."
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:05 am

Eaglesway wrote:
LLC wrote:Eaglesway, I do agree that to know Jesus is to know God, because for me there is no other. I also agree that it is good to ask questions and discuss. You mentioned your thoughts on when Jesus says "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" However, Jesus neither says "Father, why have you forsaken me?", nor does He mention the name Yahweh. According to the next verse, He was addressing Elijah. Is Elijah God?


El = God

2241 ēlí – the transliteration of the Hebrew noun ̓Ēl ("God") with the suffix (ī) which means "my"; Eli ("my God").

Why would Jesus pray to Elijah? In the very next verse it is translated by the narrator as "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me".

One of the problems I have with the modalist view is that Jesus is always talking to Himself and his Self is always talking to him in all these critical emotional situations, like Davo pointed out.

What kind of sense can a person make of the Garden of Gethsemane if there is no distinction of personality/personhood between the Father and the Son?

But as I said before, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'd rather not debate it any further, so, having said all that want to say about it, "Peace, out, y'all."



I don't believe that Jesus ever felt that God had forsaken Him. As Matthew 26: 53 says "Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?" God is the only one that remains true to His Word. The Israelites may have believed that it was God who was forsaking them whenever things went south, but the truth is God is not the one who forsakes. He proved this by coming to earth to save the remnants of what would have been a prosperous nation had the people remained true to God. If Jesus felt forsaken by God, where does that leave us, and would this be true: " Ye thou I walk through the valley of shadows, I shall fear no evil, for thou art with me, thy rod and thy staff comfort me."

I believe this verse is either being misunderstood or mistranslated.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:35 pm

I think Jesus FELT that God had forsaken Him, or He wouldn't have cried out, "Why have You forsaken me?"
But in fact God had NOT forsaken Him.

Hebrews 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.

Jesus' prayers were answered. God DID save Him from the death that He underwent, by raising Him to life!
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:43 pm

Eaglesway is right, LLC. Jesus cried out in the Syro-Chaldaic language. When the bystanders heard the word "Eloi" they thought He was addressing Elijah, the the word "Eloi" in Syro-Chaldaic means "God" (as Matthew himself wrote).
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:54 pm

Paidion, John 11:25-26 says this: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" If Jesus felt God had forsaken Him, then I would say that He did not have faith in His own words.
Deuteronomy 31:6 says this: "Be strong and of good courage, do not fear or be afraid of them; for the Lord your God, He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you."
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby [email protected] » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:46 am

Paidion, John 11:25-26 says this: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" If Jesus felt God had forsaken Him, then I would say that He did not have faith in His own words.


OR

... mankind is confronted with a God who is greater, more majestic, and highest of high whose gracious acts defy the imagination and demand our highest praise, complete devotion, and pure worship. That God the Son would leave his Heavenly throne and suffer and die as a sacrifice of atonement for our sin is totally unthinkable and further that our own hands are stained with the guilt of his death, hating very God in our unregenerate human natures. Mankind's total existence and meaning is utterly worthless apart from repentance at the feet of Christ and then to be raised to sit in Heaven with him. For Jesus, the God-man, has been lifted up to reign on Heaven's throne and even seat us with him! Incredible! So to even suggest that Jesus did not have faith in his Father God is sacrilege of the most vile and exposes utter ignorance of the beauty of the Godhead's demonstration of grace at the cross. For Christ demonstrated the greatest faith of all, obeying the Father, to the greatest degree of anyone ever. For what does it actually mean for God the Son to willingly and obediently die on a cross, to be made sin, in the presence of God the Father? God poured out his heart of grace in fullest measure for us in that single historic act. While the unbelieving look at Christ and see a spectacle that they do not understand, the believing see the most amazing display of grace that transforms hearts at the deepest level. For Jesus is not a spectacle, but he made a public spectacle of Satan at the cross, Colossians 2:15.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:42 pm

LLC wrote:Paidion, John 11:25-26 says this: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" If Jesus felt God had forsaken Him, then I would say that He did not have faith in His own words.


I don't understand, LLC. Please expand your thoughts. How does your statement above follow from your quote of Christ's words?
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:14 am

Paidion, John 8:29 says this: " The Father has not left Me alone for I always do those things which please Him." Again John 16:32 "Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone because the Father is with Me." From what I understand, forsake means to abandon or desert. So, it does not make sense to me for Jesus to be asking God, 'Why have you abandoned Me?'. The only ones I see doing any abandoning in this case is man forsaking God. Matthew 26: 56 "Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled."
You mentioned Hebrews 5:7 in which Jesus offers up prayers and supplications to Him who is able to save him from death. According to John 11:25-26, Jesus is the resurrection and the life, the one that saves from death.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:37 pm

I see it this way. Jesus was born as fully human. He retained none of his divine attributes, but divested Himself of them and became a true human:

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant [slave], being born in the likeness of men. (Philippians 2:5-7 RSV)


He could do no miracles on his own (I do NOTHING of myself—John 8:28). The Father who dwelt within Him did the miracles through Him. Being fully human, He had the emotions of a true human being. When faced with torture and death, He FELT as if the Father had forsaken Him. Of course the Father hadn't forsaken Him, but brought Him out of death by raising Him from the dead.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:15 pm

Paidion, I still can't see it. :? Jesus knew without a doubt that He was to be resurrected. He speaks about it all the time. Scripture also says that He was faithful and obedient unto death. I think knowing God never forsakes is what gave Jesus the courage to go through all that he did and see it through to the end. And as you know, I believe that Jesus was God remaining true to His own word
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:50 pm

LLC wrote:Paidion, I still can't see it.


That's all right. I am not trying to persuade you to my position—just trying to express that position.

There are many factors in the way people interpret the words of the writers of the New Testament: How one is taught as a child, what they were taught in the church they attended, the church they are attending now, that which they heard on radio or television broadcasts, their own studies of Scripture in the light of these teachings, etc.

If we are learners of Christ, trying to follow the teachings of the Altogether Lovely One, and drawing on His enabling grace, He will continue to work with us. Eventually we will all be brought to the particular dwelling place that He has prepared for us in His Body (John 14), and will be in complete harmony with Him and the rest of the Body.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:20 am

Thanks Paidion, you are so right and no matter our differences in opinion, I consider you to be very knowledgeable and wise! ;) :)
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby LLC » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:19 pm

One last note on the verse "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me?". As I believe Jesus was not speaking to the Father in this case since we know that God does not forsake, Psalm 82: 6 says this: "I said "You are gods, and are all sons of the Most High." Also in John 10:34 Jesus says "Is it not written in your law, "I said, you are gods?" I would say that Jesus was speaking to the sons of Israel, and the verse should read "My god, My god why have you forsaken Me."
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby davo » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:57 pm

LLC wrote:I would say that Jesus was speaking to the sons of Israel, and the verse should read "My god, My god why have you forsaken Me."

I like your novel approach, but I think it’s completely off-base. :D The basis for Jesus’ words was David’s cry of desperation to Yahweh, NOT “the sons of Israel”.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby [email protected] » Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:04 am

Why all the verbal gymnastics to reject the Trinity? Our is not anti-orthodoxy, but instead what does the Bible teach.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby DaveB » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:24 am

With all respect, Jeff, the verbal gymnastics are mainly from those attempting to conjure up a trin theology. You must already know this - you're a smart guy and have read the tortuous logic-chopping surrounding some of the early church councils, producing creeds with terminology that noone really understands - or if they do, it's well-nigh impossible for them to explain it to the normal believer.
I believe the Biblical accounts are clear, wonderful, and understandable: there is one mediator between God and man - the man Jesus Christ.

But there will be no settling of the matter in a paragraph on a forum - or in any other medium, if history be our guide.
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby [email protected] » Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:30 pm

You quote Chesterton and seem to respect him. He said...

If the moderns really want a simple religion of love, they must look for it in the Athanasian Creed. The truth is that the trumpet of true Christianity, the challenge of the charities and simplicities of Bethlehem or Christmas Day never rang out more arrestingly and unmistakably than in the defiance of Athanasius to the cold compromise of the Arians. It was emphatically he who really was fighting for a God of Love against a God of colourless and remote cosmic control; the God of the stoics and the agnostics. It was emphatically he who was fighting for the Holy Child against the grey deity of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. He was fighting for that very balance of beautiful interdependence and intimacy, in the very Trinity of the Divine Nature, that draws our hearts to the Trinity of the Holy Family. His dogma, if the phrase be not misunderstood, turns even God into a Holy Family.

― G.K. Chesterton, The Everlasting Man
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Re: Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Fai

Postby Paidion » Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:02 pm

The apostle Paul had it right, in 1 Corinthians 8:6 — one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.

... for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

The concept of God being a Trinity is never found in the writings of Paul. It is also the case that well over 95% of New Testament instances of the word "God" refer to the Father alone. This is not to say that Jesus, being the only-begotten Son of God is not divine. But He Himself addressed the Father in prayer as "the only true God." (John 17:3). If God were a Trinity, a compound Being, then Jesus would have prayed, "This is eternal life, that they may know You and Me and the Holy Spirit, all of which comprise the only true God. But instead, He prayed:

This is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

With that little conjunction "and" He identified Himself as someone OTHER THAN "the only true God."
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