Eaglesway wrote:I personally believe Jesus is God very God like a piece of dough torn from a lump of dough is "bread very bread". Jesus is "the bite sized piece" of the Father. He is the Son, the unique, only begotten God.
Justin wrote:“I shall give you another testimony, my friends,” said I, “from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning,[who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by
an act of will, ... just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled.
davo wrote:LLC wrote:Can anyone truly and accurately speak for another?
Of course they can… God’s prophets did it all the time. Jesus, prophet par excellence did this all the time… “I only speak what I hear the Father say” etc. In the British Commonwealth the respective ‘Governors’ General’ in their official role speak and act ON BEHALF OF the Crown… when they speak/act the Queen speaks/acts, i.e., they carry Her authority and power.
LLC wrote:So what makes Jesus any different from the prophets or the people who have spoken for God in the past?
Lk 24: 44-45 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
LLC wrote:Eaglesway, You mentioned Matthew 27:46 in which Jesus says "My God ,My God , why have you forsaken Me?"
I do not interpret this verse as Jesus feeling forsaken by God and calling out to Him. Jesus knew what His mission was and knew what was going to happen in the end.
“My God, My God, for this I was spared” i.e., *this was my destiny*.
maintenanceman wrote:Not to scratch the scab off an old wound but if we do consider fulfilled eschatology, we can realize that Christ did what He was meant to do and sin is atoned for and death is defeated!
Is Christ's death and resurrection actual or potential?
Seems to me so many on this forum still are questioning Christ's redemptive sacrifice, as if for some reason it is incomplete or not sufficient. Why are we questioning this?
Beck says of 'Wright'...
Theologically, the translational differences go to the issue of the actual versus potential nature of forgiveness. In Martin Luther's rendering--faith in Jesus--forgiveness is potential. Forgiveness is contingent upon the act of faith. You need to believe and then, once you've done that, you are forgiven. By contrast, the New Perspective rendering--faith of Jesus--focuses upon the faithfulness of Jesus in creating a new reality. Because of the work of Christ on the cross the wall of hostility and accusation between God and humanity was finally and decisively broken down. Forgiveness becomes our new reality. A new world has been created. Everyone has already been forgiven in Christ. The call is to recognize this reality and live into it. To trust (have "faith in") what the faithfulness of Jesus has accomplished for us "while we were yet sinners."
This is truly good news... Yet so many will still doubt and try to slander the Christ.
MM wrote:Seems to me so many on this forum still are questioning Christ's redemptive sacrifice, as if for some reason it is incomplete or not sufficient. Why are we questioning this?
LLC wrote:Paidion, Eaglesway, maybe it's just me and I am not understanding your views correctly. To me, the Bible is about the relationship between God and man only. However, what I get from your viewpoints as well as the Trinity is that an only begotten Son has been introduced. It seems the relationship is now between God and Jesus. What happened to the relationship between God and man?
Paidion wrote:MM wrote:Seems to me so many on this forum still are questioning Christ's redemptive sacrifice, as if for some reason it is incomplete or not sufficient. Why are we questioning this?
MANY are questioning this? I don't know of ANY who are questioning it. Who, specifically?
LLC wrote:Eaglesway, You mentioned Matthew 27:46 in which Jesus says "My God ,My God , why have you forsaken Me?"
I do not interpret this verse as Jesus feeling forsaken by God and calling out to Him. Jesus knew what His mission was and knew what was going to happen in the end. He even tells the thief that he would be with Him in paradise. Why would he think God had forsaken Him? If you read the verse that follows, the people say Jesus was calling Elijah. From what I understand, Elijah was an Israelite. I believe that Jesus(God) was actually calling out to the people of Israel here, for they were the ones that had forsaken Him. Earlier, Jesus says that He longed to gather His children as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but they were unwilling. Had the people of Israel chosen Jesus instead of Barabbas, He would not have been upon the cross.
Paidion wrote:LLC wrote:Paidion, Eaglesway, maybe it's just me and I am not understanding your views correctly. To me, the Bible is about the relationship between God and man only. However, what I get from your viewpoints as well as the Trinity is that an only begotten Son has been introduced. It seems the relationship is now between God and Jesus. What happened to the relationship between God and man?
Huh? Did something happen to it?
The Father and the Son have a perfect relationship and unity. And that same unity between Them and us is precisely that for which Jesus prayed:
I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. (John 17: 20, 21)
LLC wrote:As I mentioned, the difference is that Jesus was the one and only God speaking for Himself.
Jn 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
LLC wrote:The entire Old Testament tells us all about the one and only God, and in the New Testament He comes to earth in the form of a man.
LLC wrote:As to your last thought on Jesus feeling the pain of abandonment, the Old Testament…
LLC wrote:However, Jesus neither says "Father, why have you forsaken me?", nor does He mention the name Yahweh. According to the next verse, He was addressing Elijah. Is Elijah God?
LLC wrote:Eaglesway, I do agree that to know Jesus is to know God, because for me there is no other. I also agree that it is good to ask questions and discuss. You mentioned your thoughts on when Jesus says "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" However, Jesus neither says "Father, why have you forsaken me?", nor does He mention the name Yahweh. According to the next verse, He was addressing Elijah. Is Elijah God?
Jn 20:17b …‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
Jn 20:17b …‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
Paidion wrote:Jn 20:17b …‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
Yes, that sentence occured to me also, Davo.
Jesus has a God. Is Jesus' God another divine Person? Or is Jesus his own God? Was Jesus about to ascend to Himself?
LLC wrote:Davo, Jesus says this in John 8:58 "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
Jn 9:9 Some said, “This is he.” Others said, “He is like him.” He said, “I am he.”
LLC wrote:Davo, from what I understand, I AM, is the name of the one and only God. Exodus 3:14 says this: "And God said to Moses " I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel,' I AM has sent me to you.'"
LLC wrote:Isaiah 45:6 " I am the Lord and there is no other."
LLC wrote:True, I AM is not a name but when Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I AM.", the Jewish people knew exactly what Jesus was saying.
LLC wrote:He was basically stating that He is the one and only God who exists; that He is existence itself and He is the Supreme Being by which everything else exists.
davo wrote:LLC… how does your position massage away this text? Which or whose God and Father is involved here given your position gives "God" status ALONE to Jesus himself?Jn 20:17b …‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
davo wrote:LLC wrote:Davo, Jesus says this in John 8:58 "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
The “I am” of Jn 8:58 is a simple phrase of self-identification… as used in this text <ἐγὼ εἰμί> egō eimi is NOT a name, nor is its natural use here meant to convey historical or actual existence. Self-identification is its sole function, as can also be seen here…Jn 9:9 Some said, “This is he.” Others said, “He is like him.” He said, “I am he.”
I might also point out an important note… the final “he” is added for our English reading and is NOT in the Greek text.
Gabe Grinstead wrote:Do you think God or Jesus really cares whether you split hairs over this? If these guys are great as we think they are (Jesus and God) then I have no doubt that they could not care any less about how we regard them. A supremely powerful being who knows he is powerful doesn't need someone to acknowledge said power. That isn't to say that I think the debate is wrong, but I don't think anyone needs to justify how they think of Jesus, whether he is God, a lesser God or just a man.
This is why I abhor the idea we were created to glorify God. As if he needed us to increase his glory? That is silly non-sense. If God created us, it is because He is love and love wants to share, not because he wants to extract glory and praise from us. How vain...
LLC wrote:As for Jesus saying I AM, it is understood that I AM is THE GOD.
Eaglesway wrote:LLC wrote:Eaglesway, I do agree that to know Jesus is to know God, because for me there is no other. I also agree that it is good to ask questions and discuss. You mentioned your thoughts on when Jesus says "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" However, Jesus neither says "Father, why have you forsaken me?", nor does He mention the name Yahweh. According to the next verse, He was addressing Elijah. Is Elijah God?
El = God
2241 ēlí – the transliteration of the Hebrew noun ̓Ēl ("God") with the suffix (ī) which means "my"; Eli ("my God").
Why would Jesus pray to Elijah? In the very next verse it is translated by the narrator as "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me".
One of the problems I have with the modalist view is that Jesus is always talking to Himself and his Self is always talking to him in all these critical emotional situations, like Davo pointed out.
What kind of sense can a person make of the Garden of Gethsemane if there is no distinction of personality/personhood between the Father and the Son?
But as I said before, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'd rather not debate it any further, so, having said all that want to say about it, "Peace, out, y'all."
Paidion, John 11:25-26 says this: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" If Jesus felt God had forsaken Him, then I would say that He did not have faith in His own words.
LLC wrote:Paidion, John 11:25-26 says this: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" If Jesus felt God had forsaken Him, then I would say that He did not have faith in His own words.
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant [slave], being born in the likeness of men. (Philippians 2:5-7 RSV)
LLC wrote:Paidion, I still can't see it.
LLC wrote:I would say that Jesus was speaking to the sons of Israel, and the verse should read "My god, My god why have you forsaken Me."
If the moderns really want a simple religion of love, they must look for it in the Athanasian Creed. The truth is that the trumpet of true Christianity, the challenge of the charities and simplicities of Bethlehem or Christmas Day never rang out more arrestingly and unmistakably than in the defiance of Athanasius to the cold compromise of the Arians. It was emphatically he who really was fighting for a God of Love against a God of colourless and remote cosmic control; the God of the stoics and the agnostics. It was emphatically he who was fighting for the Holy Child against the grey deity of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. He was fighting for that very balance of beautiful interdependence and intimacy, in the very Trinity of the Divine Nature, that draws our hearts to the Trinity of the Holy Family. His dogma, if the phrase be not misunderstood, turns even God into a Holy Family.
― G.K. Chesterton, The Everlasting Man