Christian fellowship is based on discipleship—on our mutual submission to the authority of our blessed Saviour!
Never mind what they teach.
According to inclusivism (sometimes called “the faith principle”), Jesus is the particular savior of the world, but people can benefit from the redemptive work of Christ even though they die never hearing about Christ—if they respond in faith to God based on the revelation God has given them.
The inclusivist position has a long and distinguished history in the church. Such widely divergent thinkers as Justin, Thomas Aquinas, John Wesley, C. S. Lewis, and Pope John Paul II have affirmed it.[40] Today, it is the dominant view of the Roman Catholic Church and of mainline Protestants. Though the Eastern Orthodox Church has no officially sanctioned position, the inclusivistic views of Justin and other Greek fathers are widely cited with approval and many of the arguments for inclusivism are employed.[41] Inclusivism represents the closest thing to a consensus among Christians today.
[email protected] wrote:Randy, that sounded like a serious post I'll respond after church.
I tried to sign up to a website the other day.
I entered my password "cheese pie", but it said my password wasn't stroganoff.
Two cows standing next to each other in a field, Daisy says to Dolly,
"I was artificially inseminated this morning."
"I don't believe you," said Dolly.
"It's true, no bull."
[email protected] wrote:Don't you see that the message that Christ loves all mankind unconditionally is the message that the unbelieving hate?
[email protected] wrote:However, Paidon and I were discussing people who were thoroughly introduced to Christ through the Scripture and testimony of believers yet they continue to reject His divine nature.
[email protected] wrote:So those who claim to submit to the teaching of Christ only present a ruse if they are unwilling to also submit to Christ's teaching about Himself, no matter how much money they give to the poor.
That IMO is the typical evangelical mischaracterisation of the so-called “unbelieving”.
John 8:57) The Jews therefore said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58) Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM.” 59) Therefore they took up stones to throw at him, but Jesus was hidden, and went out of the temple, having gone through the middle of them, and so passed by.
[email protected] wrote:davo wrote:That IMO is the typical evangelical mischaracterisation of the so-called “unbelieving”.
I don't understand. Are you saying there are no unbelieving people? Isn't the heart of unbelief natural man's hatred of God and his grace?
[email protected] wrote:John 8:57) The Jews therefore said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58) Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM.” 59) Therefore they took up stones to throw at him, but Jesus was hidden, and went out of the temple, having gone through the middle of them, and so passed by.
Here we see that the point that tipped the scales for the unbelieving Jews was Jesus' proclamation of his Divinity. They went livid.
Deut 18:15, 18-19 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. … I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.
[email protected] wrote:Do you then fellowship with the Mormon and Jehovah Witness who likewise teach that one must submit to Christ, though they do not worship him as Apostle Thomas did, "My Lord and my God." Or do you fellowship with Muslims who likewise share passion for god, but they are offended to call Him "Father." Or do you fellowship with mystics and fools who delight in the unanswered foolery, but are offended that the Christian's eyes are not blind, but in fact opened to the answers God has revealed. God is not an elephant, but we are fools, yet do we mock God's most amazing grace, to make Himself known to foolish sinners? Do you fellowship with the Hindu who agrees that Jesus is god, but likewise thinks everything is god? Do you fellowship with the fringe labeling god a lady, neglecting God's rebuke to Israel who called their god, the 'queen of Heaven.'
Again... Christian faith includes both agreement with Biblical truth about God and action to obey this true God. So the hard work that remains is to be diligent knowing and growing closer to God and thus closer to each other, making Him known.
Do you then fellowship with the Mormon and Jehovah Witness who likewise teach that one must submit to Christ, though they do not worship him as Apostle Thomas did, "My Lord and my God." Or do you fellowship with Muslims who likewise share passion for god, but they are offended to call Him "Father." Or do you fellowship with mystics and fools who delight in the unanswered foolery, but are offended that the Christian's eyes are not blind, but in fact opened to the answers God has revealed. God is not an elephant, but we are fools, yet do we mock God's most amazing grace, to make Himself known to foolish sinners? Do you fellowship with the Hindu who agrees that Jesus is god, but likewise thinks everything is god? Do you fellowship with the fringe labeling god a lady, neglecting God's rebuke to Israel who called their god, the 'queen of Heaven.'
Again... Christian faith includes both agreement with Biblical truth about God and action to obey this true God. So the hard work that remains is to be diligent knowing and growing closer to God and thus closer to each other, making Him known.
A reasonable question would be, when did not understanding the orthodox Trinity doctrine become the same as being a Muslim. The doctrine as it stands today did not exist for 3 to 400 years. All of those saints who were martyred in the first century had no "Trinity", as such, and even if they did it was more like Tertullian's version and not called by the worshipful term.
“Isn't the heart of unbelief natural man's hatred of God and his grace?” You couldn’t have expressed more perfectly the most errant of evangelical assumptions i.e., that natural man “hates God”, WRONG! Natural man is ignorant and or agnostic with regards to “God” – where hatred is learnt is via the imposition of false notions as to the personage of God, i.e., that God is a vengeful monster lurking with wrath at the nearest of infractions according to his capricious whims. Religianity has cast forth this vile caricature of God, so little wonder “thinking people” reject it – I too reject it.
[email protected] wrote:Why then would mankind, both religious Jew and irreligious Roman conspire to crucify Christ?
Jn 11:47-48 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”
[email protected] wrote:However, when the true God presented himself to mankind in the flesh our vile natures were exposed for what they are, self lovers and God haters.
[email protected] wrote:Why are you rejecting the gospel of Romans 3:9-31? Why ruin the good news by being offended about the bad news.
[email protected] wrote:Yes we are God haters by nature…
[email protected] wrote:I confess that I am a God-hater in my natural self. My sin not only breaks God's law, but is an offense against his person. Yet God loves me still.
Davo>
So HOW is it you let (choice) the natural you hate God given you know He loves you so?
Paidion wrote:Jesus said, “Who do people say that I am?”
His disciples replied, “Some say you are John the Baptist returned from the dead; others say Elijah or another of the prophets.”
Jesus replied, “But who do you say that I am?”
Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Logos, existing in the Father as his rationality and then, by an act of his will, being generated, in consideration of the various functions by which God is related to his creation, but only because Scripture speaks of a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit, each member of the Trinity being coequal with every other member and each acting inseparably with and interpenetrating every other member, with only an economic subordination within God, but causing no division which would make the substance no longer simple.”
And Jesus answered, saying, “Huh?”
[email protected] wrote:Actually my natural self is crucified with Christ so that I, my natural self, no longer lives, but Christ lives in me, Galatians 2:20.
[email protected] wrote:I confess that I am a God-hater in my natural self.
[email protected] wrote:Paidon, Paidon, I hope you are not avoiding our earlier more important point. You seemed to be saying earlier that it did not matter what one believes about the nature of Christ or the Holy Spirit's identity as long as one obeyed them or at least followed their ideals.
Now conveniently the real you no longer exists??
[email protected] wrote:davo wrote:Now conveniently the real you no longer exists??
In whatever sense Paul understood that there was both a dead natural man that still lived in him as well as a transformed new man that had taken over, then I am with Paul. For Paul said, Romans 7:17, "So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me."
[email protected] wrote:I see you guys have now taken to mocking me and my Christian faith.
[email protected] wrote:…but want to bring to conversation back to the purpose of this post. I am the recruitment officer for an organization seeking to 1) advance the good news of the final victory of grace for all mankind, 2) recruit ambassadors to respectfully appeal both within and without Christendom, and 3) develop a brief and Biblical statement of faith. So the purpose of this post was to get comment on a proposed statement of faith and make revision as persuaded.
I think the recent activity on this post has been offended or objects to one or more of these statements. Well we may need to agree to disagree because nothing said thus far is changing my opinion on any of the five points above. Though I am always open to further discussion. Yet I would hate to get in a 'fist fight' that makes it more difficult to be great friends when the Holy Spirit finally persuades us all, whether in this life or when we see Christ face to face.... for there will be no disagreement then!
LLC wrote: If one believes Jesus was a just a man who followed and worshipped the one true God,
DaveB wrote:Beats me, but I guess it's more interesting than my post! Fits into this thread somehow?
LLC wrote:For me, saying that Jesus is God but not the Father(God) and the Holy Spirit is also God but not the Father (God) is a statement that leads to a lot of confusion. It seems like one who can't make up his mind as to who God is. I would say that if a person believes that Jesus is God, then He should be followed and worshipped as He showed us how to do. If one believes Jesus was a just a man who followed and worshipped the one true God, and we follow His example and do the same, then I suppose that this would lead us to the same place
3. That those denying that Christ is very God are not Christians (though if interested in following him they are on a good path).
Paidion: Is Paidion a given name or an adopted one According to 3813. paidion, it means "a young child". No offense met - just curious.
LLC wrote:Eaglesway, you mentioned that Jesus was "God very God" who made all of His fullness dwell in Jesus. To me, this is basically saying that Jesus was simply God in a man's body. If this the case, and as some say Jesus was fully God and fully human at the same time, then I suppose that in some instances, He would be talking about Himself as God. At other times, He would be talking about Himself as a human in order to set the example for us. If one so happened to be God Himself in a human body, would He really tell people this? For one thing, many would just think the person is a nut job. Secondly, we might get the idea that if this human person is God, that means we are all God as well. How does one go about describing God as a human while He is not really human, and that we as humans, while we have many God given attributes,we are not God?
On another note, the Old Testament speaks of people being filled with the Holy Spirit.
Exodus 35:30-31 says this: "And Moses said to the children of Israel, "See, the Lord has called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah; and He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom and understanding, in knowledge and all manner of workmanship."
Exodus 40: 34 mentions the glory of the Lord filling the tabernacle. "Then the cloud covered the tabernacle of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle."
What do you make of Luke 3:22 and Matthew 3:16 that say the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus right after He was baptized?
Hi Eaglesway, you wrote:I believe Jesus was completely limited to humanity in His incarnation. He did not ever know all things while in His human body.