[email protected] wrote:Hope
to digest your reply in time. So in a nutshell are you saying you
understand that human beings will be punished in the Lake of Fire, but
then be released sometime later beyond the end of the Bible?
I
think the Bible talks about them being released from the LoF eventually
before the end of the Bible -- RevJohn itself indisputably flashes
forward and back quite a bit, and I think it even addresses this topic
occasionally before it ends. But otherwise yes.
jeff wrote:>1)This
part of the argument needs more specific details why the LoF wouldn't
be a punishment subsequent to hades for humans...
However, in a nutshell I see a distinction between punishment and damnation, [thus] between Hades and the LoF.
Okay, that would explain the missing part of the argument I was critiquing in point 1. But...
![Wink ;)](topic_files/icon_e_wink.gif)
Scripturally,
the term(s) translated condemnation ( == damnation) tend to be
connected to terms involving punishment, and certainly tend to be
connected to human condemnation and punishment. I don't see a clear
distinction between the condemnation terms (per se) of Matt 25 for
example compared to condemnation terms, krisis and krima, being used for
threatening even apostles (and certainly other human beings) with
coming punishment elsewhere in the NT. We've been discussing 2 Thess
1:8-9 (again!) recently for example, which in context is definitely
about a punishment coming from God onto humans before the general
resurrection, and the same term for judgment == condemnation is used
there (and in the Greek version of Paul's OT references there) as in
Matt 25. I could multiply examples a long way, but I'm not at the office
with my gear this morning so I'll let this brief example suffice.
Jeff wrote:2) 20:11-15) makes no special distinction between whether the dead in the sea or the dead in hades are written in the BoL...
This
is further defended in my whole book, to which the above article is
just an appendix. Again in a nutshell I understand the BoL to be the
record of all souls finally saved, the redeemed, saved from the LoF that
is all humanity based on the vicarious atoning work for mankind. There
are many who feel that names are added (or even deleted) from the BoL
based on human action. However I think a better understanding is that
the BoL contains the names of all those finally saved, whose sins are
paid for, saved from the LoF, that is all humanity. The point is that
the inverse of Revelation 20:15 is also true and a comfort to believers.
Thus Revelation 20:15 stands as a comfort to the believing elect, a
warning to the unbelieving elect, and condemnation to the non-elect.
I'm
very fuzzy how Rev 20:15 per se is supposed to be a warning of
condemnation to the non-elect (unless by the non-elect you only mean
rebel angels not humans, who aren't in much position to read RevJohn
anyway), much less a warning to the unbelieving elect since the BoL
judgment doesn't apply to them at all on your theory: they're all in the
BoL and won't be punished with the lake of fire! Maybe you meant to
reference verses 12 and 13 instead? -- since being judged by the book of
deeds might involve some kind of punishment yet not the lake of fire.
Also,
"many feel that names are added or deleted from the BoL based on human
action", thanks to Biblical testimony on that topic, including in
RevJohn itself (as cited immediately afterward). It isn't just a
feeling.
Jeff wrote: I think
there is a better understanding, namely that God is willing to tell the
unbelieving elect that they are not elect, even that their names are
blotted from the book, even though their name still remains and they are
finally saved from the LoF!
...yeah, aside
from this not at all dealing with the data, I'm not much for the idea of
God giving totally fake warnings which He doesn't even slightly intend.
Among other problems, someone could very easily flip that concept
around to the idea of God giving totally fake assurances of salvation to
the non-elect which He doesn't even slightly intend -- as I've seen
Calvs occasionally try in order to get around Biblical assurances that
God intends and acts toward saving all sinners from sin! You could just
as easily yourself flip your tactic around to explain away apparent
Biblical testimony that even rebel angels will be saved from sin, as a
fake assurance given to the non-elect.
I guess I could grant that
this expedient would 'solve' the problem, but I couldn't imagine
calling this a "better understanding".
Jeff wrote: 4) Jesus seriously warns people they could go into Gehenna
Certainly. However, this could be the fires which purify in this life or the fires of Hades could it not?
I’m
kind of surprised you didn’t bother to answer with, ‘I think there is a
better understanding, namely that God is willing to tell the
unbelieving elect that they may go into the unquenchable fire of
Gehenna, even though God really has no intention at all of putting them
there for any reason and certainly won’t do so.’ One completely fake
warning of non-intended judgment is worth another; it isn’t like there
are any signifiers either way to show the warning is fake.
That
aside, yes I agree it can refer to the fires of Hades -- and from Mark
9:49-50 I can agree that the fires can purify in this life, too. Then
again, I regard this fire (which involves salting for peace) to be our
God the consuming fire, i.e. the Holy Spirit, with which Jesus baptizes
people unto repentance and remission from sin (which still applies to
the rebel Pharisees per the warning of Jesus and John the Baptist citing
Malachi 3 and 4 on that topic). But then by extension no less a fire
than the Holy Spirit would be used for the Lake of Fire judgment,
either. I’m not fond of multiplying the number of distinctly different
judgmental fires from God, when one judgmental fire, God Himself,
accounts for everything.
Beyond that, are there linguistic
connections to the LoF? Secondarily, yes: the warning is given against
the apostles, including in Matt 18; Christ has evidently the same
warning in view to the apostles in Matt’s sequel report regarding Peter
trying to figure out if there’s a limit past which he doesn’t have to
forgive a repentant brother; and the term for ‘torment’ used in that
judgment parable is related to the term for ‘torment’ used for people
apparently in the LoF in RevJohn 14’s flashforward to that coming
judgment.
But I’ll grant the link isn’t necessarily ironclad
thereby; and even if it was, you would only use that as evidence that
Jesus was only pretending to threaten the apostles (or any other humans
like the Pharisees) with a Gehenna punishment. You might as well save
several steps and go straight to that defense, since by its nature no
amount of apparent evidence to the contrary could ever count against it.
Jeff wrote:
5) Rev 21:8, the typical list of human sin -- not exclusive of the sin
of rebel angels of course -- indicates those whose part shall be in the
lake of fire
Certainly, but if we are judged
by that verse alone then no one is saved, ever. Not even you and I.
Instead this verse indicates the damnation of all who have committed
these sins who have not had these sins paid for, whose names are not in
the BoL. I have committed and still commit these sins, however, mankind
is spared from the LoF because God's grace wrote our name's in the BoL.
Also I understand Revelation 22:14-15 is an evangel call for the rebel
elect to prepare for the GWT. There is one grand picture in view in Rev
21-22, not an evangel call after sentencing to the LoF. You might find
this article interesting
http://www.dgjc.org/content/optimism/ho ... -to-humans.
It’s
a good thing I wasn’t referring to “that verse alone” then, but
including its context! Actually, this verse (and the subsequent one in
Rev 22) indicates the people who are still impenitently fondling their
sins -- and they’re being evangelized. The only distinction between them
is a theoretical one you’re importing to save your theory; no such
distinction exists in the text.
(In fact your own theory breaks
up the “one grand picture in view in Rev 21-22” so that in one case the
people so described are rebel elect being evangelized before the LoF,
and in the other case the people so described are only rebel angels
suffering after the LoF judgment. Rev 21-22 flashes around at least a
little, so I don’t hold some choppiness per se against a theory there,
but you have no superiority of one grand picture in view.)
Jeff wrote:[6)
The consuming fire warning of Heb 12:29 overtly applies to human
readers of the epistle, and the context overtly includes human examples
That
is a beautiful verse that certainly is not talking about the LoF or
even punishment, but instead the burning up of our idols, our
purification! God's consuming fire of love is burning down on each of us
know as he allows our idols to crumble and replaces them with himself. I
never thought fallen angels were in view here at all, but it is mankind
that he is helping, Hebrews 2:16.
See, when
you say it isn’t talking about punishment, in the context of a chapter
specifically talking about how God punishes people because He loves them
and warning Christians not to fall away or they’re going to get
punished, and citing the (rather physically fatal) punishments dealt out
by God to rebel Israel in Moses’ day as a comparison -- then I have to
think your theories strongly depend on ignoring any inconvenient
contexts regardless of how loud those contexts are.
Granted, the
Lake of Fire judgment itself isn’t specifically in view here; but a
chapter indicating the fearsome but hopeful purpose of God’s punishment
of sinners by God the consuming fire, would seem to be strong testimony
about God’s basic intentions in inflicting punishment by spiritual fire.
To get around that by denying it’s about punishment at all just seems
overtly anti-contextual.
Jeff wrote:
7) ...Rev 14:9-13... the targets are humans who agreed to receive the
mark of the beast... it also means they went into the LoF.
Rather
the fires of Hades, for they worship the Beast who is still at large.
The Beast is damned to the LoF before the Millenium and so those who
worship him will be sentenced to the fires of Hades before the both the
Millenium and the GWT. No one except the Beast and the False Prophet are
mentioned as entering the LoF before the GWT.
Well,
there’s two humans working with Satan who went into the LoF alive; the
distinction in Rev 19:20 being that those two went in alive and “those
who did bow before his image” went in after being slain. (Though I’ll
provisionally grant the grammar might read better that “those who did
bow before his image” were deceived by the FP.)
But the reason I
mentioned Rev 14 was that the imagery there and at the start of Rev 15
corresponds to the purifying bath in the Temple before the mercy seat of
the ark, which was regarded as a basin or sea of fire (with physical
mirrors in the basin to reflect and cast light around for a literal
poetic effect so to speak). This also happens, not by coincidence, to
correspond with the extra phrase tacked onto many copies of Mark 9 (some
of them very early) about all sacrifices being salted with salt, in
reference to everyone being salted with the unquenchable fire of
Gehenna. And the brimstone imagery comes back to be applied to the lake
that burns with fire and brimstone later at Rev 19:20, 20:10, and 21:8.
Rev
14:10 doesn’t have to mean that people are entering the LoF before the
GWT, but it can easily mean they’re going to eventually. (Or as I would
say, that the purifying fire and brimstone, sulfur being an ancient
extreme medical remedy like fire in the ancient world and still a main
antibiotic base today, starts to work on impenitent sinners in hades
before the general resurrection, too.) The connections between them are
very strong.
Skipping past Heb 2:16 for now, since you want to look into that.
Jeff wrote:
9) ...Isaiah 66:25, 11:6-10... There are several other scriptural
passages indicating God will bring even the ultra-rebel dragon back into
loyalty, too.
I am not convinced. Where is Isaiah 66:25?
You
might have figured from my detail that I made a typo, and checked back
one chapter; I meant Isaiah 65: 25. It’s a pretty famous verse.
Jeff wrote:
Actually Isaiah 66:22-24 conclude the pages of Isaiah with a picture of
Revelation 21-22, that is ALL mankind saved and looking with horror on
who? The defeated fallen angels.
But since you
mention the end of Isaiah 66 -- this is the verse Christ quotes in Mark
9 / Matt 18 (and earlier in Matt 5’s parallel warning if I recall
correctly) involving Gehenna. So now you can have fun deciding whether
this applies to the LoF judgment or not after all.
![Wink ;)](topic_files/icon_e_wink.gif)
But from Isaiah’s own perspective it applies to humans being slain at
the coming of YHWH and the survivors being appalled by it; there’s a
parallel scene in Ezekiel or Jeremiah (at the house right now so I’d
have to check my notes at the office) where God gives instructions on
how the survivors will have to send teams out for years to properly
collect and bury and/or burn the dead, and how even after that’s done
some people will be assigned to check for remaining bones and flag them
for proper removal and burial later. Isaiah doesn’t go into anything
like that detail, but he’s quite explicit about them being the corpses
of men (iysh) who transgressed against God.
Jeff wrote:
10) Jude 13 says the false teachers will be condemned to the same
zophos as the angels which did not keep their own domain but abandoned
their proper abode.
Sure, the fires of Hades
or Tartarus. I have suggested that mankind and angels are punished in
separate locations, Hades versus Tartarus. I need to see if there is
further defense for this. My current argument is that only angels are
explicitly mentioned has being sent to Tartarus, 2 Peter 2:4 and also
the distinct difference in nature and final destiny of mankind versus
fallen angels warrants different punishment and handling in the
afterlife. Wouldn't separate compartment for unbelieving humans in Hades
and fallen angels in Tartarus serve to help Jesus deliver appropriate
punishments for each body and also mercy to humans? Furthermore I don't
know if individuals being punished rub shoulders with each other, but
the anger and rebellion of fallen angels seems to require their
separation from humanity, especially in the afterlife.
It
makes no difference if only angels are mentioned being sent to Tartarus
in 2 Peter 2:4, if the parallel statements indicate humans are sent to
the same darkness. I could also reply that the Tartarus punishment is
explicitly compared even in 2 Peter to humans being punished by divine
power, but I can grant that this doesn’t prevent a distinction being
read into the punishments from elsewhere. The distinction has to be read
into from elsewhere, though, not positively argued from these verses
which don’t indicate a special distinction; on the contrary the explicit
point whether in 2 Peter or its Jude parallel is that certain humans
get punished like fallen angels.
And in fact your main defense is
that you’re reading the distinction of different final destinies in
from elsewhere: wouldn’t the different final destinies require a
distinction between the same darkness mentioned for fallen angels and
some human evildoers, etc.? Well, yes, begging the question like that
would require a distinction being foisted into the text, but that’s not
exactly a great defense.
As to whether rebel angels and fallen
humans interact with one another in spiritual punishment or in physical
punishment (if rebel angels are provided bodies for that later, which I
think is quite tenable), I’m willing to be agnostic and can go either
way -- I don’t think it’s intrinsically impossible, and if it helps God
reach certain goals then I could see Him doing it. I don’t offhand
recall direct testimony of interaction in punishment, only that rebel
humans and rebel angels go into similar imprisonment.
Jeff wrote:
11) Matt 25:41 does not say the eonian fire is not prepared for humans
it can just as easily mean that humans are sharing in a punishment
prepared first for the devil and his angels.
Yes
and that is how everyone who believes humans are eternally damned
interprets the passage. And many universalists interpret the passage
that way as well arguing that humans are sent to the LoF, but eventually
saved from the LoF later, even beyond the pages of Scripture.
Regardless,
you highly stressed the verse as positive testimony for your position;
I’m just pointing out that the verse itself doesn’t exclude humanity.
Neither does Jesus say the eonian fire is prepared for YOU angels of the
devil; the grammar indicates Jesus is talking to group X (not the devil
or his angels) about group Y (the devil and his angels).
Jeff wrote: 12) ...The devil and his angels wouldn't be surprised at that, though they might be punished for being unmerciful, too.
I have made that case that even the Devil and his angels could in fact offer up those lame words,
http://www.dgjc.org/content/optimism/yo ... w-25-31-46
I'll
look into that argument later, though in the best case it will have to
be somewhat ad hoc. So will any explanation for why this parable is
grouped with three previous warning parables aimed at misbehaving
Christians (as you yourself acknowledge); and for why humans are in view
in the Ezekiel 25 parallel to the judgment -- you might as well default
back to a fake warning against humans here and in those three prior
parables, too.
Your reply should also, perhaps most importantly,
account for how even the rebel angels must necessarily be among the
least of Christ’s flock right there on the scene; consequently any
interpretation of hopeless punishment for rebel angels as the least of
Christ’s flock puts the interpreter into the position of the least of
Christ’s flock being punished for having no saving mercy on the least of
Christ’s flock!
Jeff wrote: the four parabolic warnings are pointless... if they have no reference to a truly possible punishment for humans.
Certainly
the [three prior judgment] parables are speaking to humans and urging
our obedience. However, I am not convinced that the parables are
parallel with the Sheep and Goat Judgment... in time. Instead the Lord
takes his Throne at the Sheep/Goat/GWT for final judgment. The Lord is
judging our decisions in time and finally at the end of this time.
It
can hardly be clearer that the Lord is judging the merciful and
unmerciful decisions (or at least the true attitudes) of persons in the
sheep/goat judgment, too; which fits the general concept, even if the
prior three judgments refer to a punishment coming before the general
resurrection and the last judgment refers to a post-resurrection
punishment. There is literally nothing in the sheep-goat parable to
indicate that the apostles should have understood it to refer to the
judgment only of rebel angels, a point they would have naturally already
believed.
Jeff wrote:Perhaps the
positive mention of Goats in Ezekiel 25 is a hint that God will finally
release fallen angels from the LoF sometime beyond the end of Scripture.
Perhaps,
but more to the point the rebel shepherds (and the sheep and the goats)
are all human in Ezekiel 25, which lends that much more weight to
humans being primarily in view at Matt 25.
Jeff wrote: So we agree that their incredulous response shows that [the sheep] are someone other than Christians. Yay!
Though
this means now the judgment parable (on your theory) is about good
non-Christians on one hand (surprise) being contrasted to evil rebel
angels (no surprise).
Jeff wrote: Yet we do have major indication that these Sheep were just released from Hades.
I didn’t say they weren’t just released from Hades; I said there’s no indication they were being
punished
in Hades. But looking back, I notice now you didn’t say they were being
punished in hades either, so we actually have no disagreement on this
point. Sorry, that was my mistake; I should have paid better attention.
Dondi
makes a good point I think about “ethos” referring to human groups (and
typically pagan ones). I might add that Paul in Rom 2 effectively says
Christ can judge in favor of those who do not know the Torah based on
how well they’ve been cooperating with Him by means of the Spirit of the
Law He sends to all men. C. S. Lewis, and his stepson Christian
missionary Douglas Gresham, connected those two scriptures together; but
it isn’t meant to be salvation by good works, rather that Christ judges
our faith in Him by our works even where we don’t explicitly know or
accept Him yet.
I’m willing to grant that the correct attitude is
what is important rather than physical opportunities or not; thus
whether rebel angels do or do not have opportunities to do physical
charity is irrelevant in principle. On the other hand, if (as I argue)
the attitude in question is the attitude toward people
who have been punished by God
(the list being typical of divine punishments, and the connection being
made between the baby-goats and the least of Christ’s flock), then
rebel angels are the first persons I would think of as having no mercy
toward other people.
![Wink ;)](topic_files/icon_e_wink.gif)
But then neither could humans be excluded from that judgment -- as in
fact they are not in at least one of the three prior judgments against
lazy or uncharitable or oppressive servants of Christ! (The talenton
judgment, like the mina judgment, being aimed against people who opt out
of doing the work of Christ while He’s away on the ground that they
think Christ is equivalent to an unmerciful bandit chief.)
Jeff wrote:Isn't the imagery of goats always reserved for the unredeemed, that is Satan and his angels?
I’m
not sure I’d want to press that too far even in the case of the
unredeemed per se, but it’s definitely used for humans sometimes, such
as in the relevant Ezekiel 25 parallel.
Jeff wrote:Instead the imagery for the unbelieving redeemed, mankind, is lost sheep.
The
term at Matt 25, and usually in the NT including the Gospels, refers to
any flock of small herd animals, including mixed flocks. The 100th
sheep (as in the Synoptics including earlier in GosMatt) and the Good
Shepherd (as in GosJohn) could just as easily refer to goats, and the
earliest Christian art on this subject includes goats possibly more
often than sheep per se! (Maybe because goats are so willful and need
more training.) The distinction at Matt 25 anyway is between the
probaton on one hand and baby-goats on the other, so it’s a mature
possibly mixed flock compared to immature hard to train animals.